Author Topic: Veneration of the Quraish Pagan's Black Stone Idol and Ka'aba  (Read 29239 times)

Peter

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Veneration of the Quraish Pagan's Black Stone Idol and Ka'aba
« on: February 17, 2010, 07:10:29 AM »
disappeared then restored from the database

[added 3-1-14] Added because one of Muhammad's followers in this forum actually tried to deny that the Quraish pagan's black stone idol, is an idol, in spite of the fact that their own books indicate that the black stone was just one of 360 idols that the Quraish venerated in and around the Kaaba.

Dictionary.com
Idol
1. an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed.


http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/venerate
Veneration
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion




The fact of the matter is that Muhammad's followers prostrate and pray toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol and Kaaba five times a day. The fifth pillar of Islam even obligates every Muslim to travel to the black stone idol and kaaba, and circumambulate it, just as the Arabian pagans did in moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship, before Muhammad was ever born.
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm

Despite all of the speculation that follows on this page from various websites, including speculation that the kaaba had been a hindu temple or that it was rebuilt by the Quraish pagans, from what this author has been able to find or been presented by Muslims in this forum, there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that supports that the Kaaba ever existed before the Quraish pagans initially built it, in around the early 5th century AD. [end addition 3-1-14]

[added 3-28-13 don't know how I didn't add this video on the black stone sooner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4PMvVKrb_Y [end edit 3-28-13]

I'm certainly glad my omnipresent God doesn't compel me to bow to a black rock (sole surviving idol of 360 pagan idols that were worshiped in the Ka'aba) 5 times a day, much less compel me to travel to it so I can march around and around it while even rubbing on it, or kissing it as Mohammed did.

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
_______________________________

The Black Stone Part 11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UnrVCQFmh0
_________________________

The black stone turned black because it was fingered by a menstruating woman Tabari 5:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpl4Q7Ul_wo
________________________

The Truth behind The Black Stone, Allah, Gabriel and Muhammad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkZFUEDkwdc
__________________________________

Following from Faith Freedom: http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2236&start=0

"Muslims can be likened to people living in glass houses throwing stones at others yet they cannot defend their own fragile house that shatters under scrutiny.





The kaaba, is one of the biggest idols in the world which is paid homage to 24/7, 365 days of the year.
Apparently Mohammed got rid of all the idols in the cube but retained one strange stone. What is the significance of this stone in Islam, no one knows. NO MUSLIM comes close to effectively explaining the reason for this wierd veneration, yet Muslims bow down before this rock idol 24/7, 365 days of the year. Muslims have the audacity of criticizing other religions especially Hindus of worshipping idols, when in fact the whole kaaba scene is probably an ancient Hindu temple."
http://volker-doormann.org/kaaba23.htm

However the evidence suggests that author is in error, since there is not a shred of evidence that suggests that the Kaaba is an "ancient" structure, any more than Mecca is an ancient town.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/

"The black stone at Kaaba is held sacred and holy in Islam and is called "Hajre Aswad" from the Sanskrit word Sanghey Ashweta or Non-white stone. The Shiva Lingam is also called Sanghey Ashweta. So what is in Kaaba could be the same what Hindus worship.

As per saivagamas and vedic scriptures all Shiva temples were constructed with Shivalinga facing the east. This can be seen even in every temples around the world today. Temple entrances will always face east or north east direction. As per vaastu this is also practiced where prayer room should always be in the north east part of the house with images of deities facing east. The entrance of the house should face east or north east. This is clearly seen with the placement of Hajar Aswad and the entrance of the Kaabah."

"Note: A recent archeological find in Kuwait unearthed a gold-plated statue of the Hindu deity Ganesh. A Muslim resident of Kuwait requested historical research material that can help explain the connection between Hindu civilisation and Arabia.

By P.N. Oak (Historian) Glancing through some research material recently, I was pleasantly surprised to come across a reference to a king Vikramaditya inscription found in the Kaaba in Mecca proving beyond doubt that the Arabian Peninsula formed a part of his Indian Empire. The text of the crucial Vikramaditya inscription, found inscribed on a gold dish hung inside the Kaaba shrine in Mecca, is found recorded on page 315 of a volume known as ‘Sayar-ul-Okul’ treasured in the Makhtab-e-Sultania library in Istanbul, Turkey. Rendered in free English the inscription says:

http://www.salagram.net/VWH-Kaaba.html

Meteorite veneration common in ancient times Throughout the ages, meteorites were venerated as sacred objects by different cultures and ancient civilizations. The spectacular fall of a meteorite, accompanied by light and sound phenomena, such as falling stars, smoke, thunder, and sonic booms, has always kindled the human imagination, evoking fear and awe in everyone who witnesses such an event. For obvious reasons, the remnants of these incidents, the actual meteorites, were often kept as sacred stones or objects of power. They were worshiped, and used in their respective religious ceremonies. There is another famous example from the Middle East, but there is some dispute about whether the object of veneration is actually a meteorite or not. We are referring to the "Hadschar al Aswad", the sacred "black stone", to which all Moslems pay homage on their "Hadsch", their pilgrimage to Mecca and the most important sanctuary of the Islam, the Kaaba. .....
......Wouldn't it be great to know that there is at least one ancient betyl left, and that it is still venerated after more than perhaps 2,000 years?

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/mistic/meteorites_religion.htm

Zoroaster kaaba in Iran
There are various theories on the original purpose of Zoroaster’s Kaba. Some experts believe that the monument was the home of a complete copy of the Avesta which had been written on 12,000 cows’ skins. Some Orientalists also believe that Zoroaster’s Kaba was a place where the Zoroastrians’ sacred fire was kept burning eternally.

http://www.cais-soas.com/news/2005/July2005/31-07.htm
__________________________

Islam: Meteorite Worship of the black stone
Islam’s meteorite that they circle at the Kaba is like the Meteorite of Acts 19:23-36, six hundred years earlier. It seems pagans would think the meteor was a god and start worshipping it.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-meteorite-worship.htm
   

Peter

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2010, 02:36:45 PM »
http://inthenameofallah.org/Black%20Stone%20OR%20Hajar%20al%20Aswad.html

Fiqh-us-Sunnah   Fiqh 5.74b
Sunnah of Tawaf
It is Sunnah to perform certain acts in tawaf as given below:
1.        Facing the Black Stone at the start of the tawaf while uttering a takbir (Allahu-Akbar), and a tahlil (La ilaha illahlah), and raising one's hands as they are raised in prayers, and if possible touching it with both hands and kissing it quietly, or placing one's cheek on it. Otherwise, one may touch it with one's hand and kiss the hand, or touch it with something, and then kiss it, or if even that is not possible, one may just point to it with a stick, etc. as is mentioned in some of the ahadith given below.

Ibn 'Umar said: "Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) faced the Black Stone touched it, and then placed his lips on it and wept for a long time." 'Umar also wept for a long time. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: 'O 'Umar, this is the place where one should shed tears.''' (Reported by Al-Hakim, who considers it a sound hadith with a sound chain of authorities)

       It is reported by Ibn 'Abbas that 'Umar bent down towards the Black Stone and said: "By Allah! I know that you are a mere stone, and if I had not seen my beloved Prophet (peace be upon him) kissing you and touching you I would have never done so."

       *** This is an extremely interesting statement from one who used to be a pagan. His conversion to Monotheism was so complete that he was able to make the above statement while his Prophet (Muhammad) was actually VENERATING an IDOL ***

The Quran 33.32 says: "You have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct)."' This was reported by Ahmad and others in slightly different words.

Nafi' said, "I have seen Ibn 'Umar touching the Black Stone with his hand, and then kissing his hand and saying: 'Ever since I saw the Prophet (peace be upon him) doing this, I have never failed to do that.''' (Reported by Bukhari and Muslim)

Sowayd bin Ghaflah said: "I have seen 'Umar kissing the Black Stone and touching it." He further said: "I know that the Prophet (peace be upon him) was especially very particular about it.''

(Muslim) Ibn 'Umar reported that Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) used to come to Ka'bah, touch the Black Stone and then say:
Bismillahi wallahu akbar (In the name of Allah, Allah is the Greatest.)"

(Ahmad) Muslim has reported on the authority of Abu Tufail that he said: "I have seen the Prophet (peace be upon him) making tawaf around the Ka'bah and touching it with a stick and then kissing the stick."

       Bukhari, Muslim and Abu Daw'ud reported that 'Umar approached the Black Stone and kissed it.

Then he said: "I know that you are a mere stone that can neither harm nor do any good. If I had not seen the Prophet (peace be upon him) kissing you, I would have never kissed you."

Al-Khatabi said: "This shows that abiding by the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him) is binding, regardless of whether or not we understand its reason or the wisdom behind it."

       Such information devolves obligation on all those whom it reaches, even if they may not fully comprehend its significance. It is known, however, that kissing the Black Stone signifies respect for it, recognition of our obligation toward it, and using it as a means of seeking Allah's blessings. Indeed Allah has preferred some stones over others, as He preferred some countries and cities, days and nights, and months over others. The underlying spirit of all this is unquestioning submission to Allah.

       In some ahadith which say that "the Black Stone is Allah's right hand on earth," we do find, however, a plausible rationale and justification for this statement. In other words whosoever touches the Black Stone he pledges allegiance to Allah, as it were, by giving his hand into the hand of Allah, just as some followers do pledge their fealty to their kings and masters, by kissing and shaking hands with them.

Al-Muhallib said: "The hadith of 'Umar refutes the assertions of those who say that 'The Black Stone is Allah's right hand on earth wherewith He shakes the hands of His slaves."' God forbid that we should ascribe any physical organs to Allah. The commandment to kiss the Black Stone is meant to test and to demonstrate palpably as to who obeys and submits. It may be compared with the command to Iblis to bow to Adam.

       We have no definite evidence, however, to believe that any of the stones used in building the Ka'bah originally (by Ibrahim and Isma'il), is still in existence today excepting the Black Stone.

Sunan of Abu-DawoodHadith 1813        Narrated byAbdullah ibn Abbas
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A person who performs umrah should shout talbiyah till he touches the Black Stone.

Sunan of Abu-DawoodHadith 1884        Narrated byAbdullah ibn Abbas
The Prophet (peace be upon him) wore the mantle under his right armpit with the end over his left shoulder, and touched the corner (Black Stone), then uttered "Allah is most great" and walked proudly in three circuits of circumambulation. When they (the Companions) reached the Yamani corner, and disappeared from the eyes of the Quraysh, they walked as usual; When they appeared before them, they walked proudly with rapid strides. Thereupon the Quraysh said: They look to be the deer (that are jumping). Ibn Abbas said: Hence this became the sunnah (model behaviour of the Prophet).

       *** The reader should be made aware that Muhammad and his 'Muslim' followers were circumambulating the Ka'ba while it was still a PAGAN SHRINE ***

Sunan of Abu-DawoodHadith 1894        Narrated byAbdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As
Shu'ayb ibn Abdullah said: I went round the Ka'bah along with Abdullah ibn Amr. When we came behind the Ka'bah I asked: Do you not seek refuge? He uttered the words: I seek refuge in Allah from the Hell-fire. He then went (farther) and touched the Black Stone, and stood between the corner (Black Stone) and the entrance of the Ka'bah. He then placed his breast, his face, his hands and his palms in this manner, and he spread them, and said: I saw the apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) doing like this.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 2.667        Narrated byAbis bin Rabia
'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 2.675        Narrated byZaid bin Aslam from his father who said
"Umar bin Al-Khattab addressed the Corner (Black Stone) saying, 'By Allah! I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you.' Then he kissed it and said, 'There is no reason for us to do Ramal (in Tawaf) except that we wanted to show off before the pagans, and now Allah has destroyed them.' 'Umar added, '(Nevertheless), the Prophet did that and we do not want to leave it (i.e. Ramal).'

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 2.673        Narrated bySalim that his father said
I saw Allah's Apostle arriving at Mecca; he kissed the Black Stone Corner first while doing Tawaf and did ramal in the first three rounds of the seven rounds (of Tawaf).

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 2.676        Narrated byNafi
Ibn 'Umar. said, "I have never missed the touching of these two stones of Ka'ba (the Black Stone and the Yemenite Corner) both in the presence and the absence of crowds, since I saw the Prophet touching them." I asked Nafi': "Did Ibn 'Umar use to walk between the two Corners?" Nafi' replied, "He used to walk in order that it might be easy for him to touch it (the Corner Stone)."

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 2.683        Narrated byUrwa
'Aisha said, "The first thing the Prophet did on reaching Mecca, was the ablution and then he performed Tawaf of the Ka'ba and that was not 'Umra (alone), (but Hajj-al-Qiran). 'Urwa added: Later Abu Bakr and 'Umar did the same in their Hajj." And I performed the Hajj with my father Az-Zubair, and the first thing he did was Tawaf of the Ka'ba. Later I saw the Muhajirin (Emigrants) and the Ansar doing the same. My mother (Asma') told me that she, her sister ('Aisha), Az-Zubair and such and such persons assumed Ihram for 'Umra, and after they passed their hands over the Black Stone Corner (of the Ka'ba) they finished the Ihram (i.e. after doing Tawaf of the Ka'ba and Sa'i between Safa-Marwa).

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 2.697        Narrated byIbn Abbas
Allah's Apostle performed Tawaf (of the Kaba) riding a camel (at that time the Prophet had foot injury). Whenever he came to the Corner (having the Black Stone) he would point out towards it with a thing in his hand and say, "Allahu-Akbar."

Al-Muwatta Hadith  Hadith 20.108
Hastening (Raml) in the Tawaf
Yahya related to me from Malik from Jafar ibn Muhammad from his father that Jabir ibn Abdullah said, "I saw the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, hastening from the Black Stone until he reached it again, three times."
Malik said, "This is what is still done by the people of knowledge in our city."

Al-Tirmidhi HadithHadith 2577        Narrated byAbdullah ibn Abbas
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "The black stone descended from Paradise whiter than milk, but the sins of the descendants of Adam made it black."
Ahmad and Tirmidhi transmitted it, the latter saying that his is a hasan sahih tradition.


Peter

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2010, 10:38:28 AM »
"After this pivotal migration, or Hijra, the Muslim community became a political and military force. In 630, Muhammad and his followers returned to Mecca as conquerors, and he destroyed the 360 idols in and around the Kaaba.[31][32] While destroying each idol, Muhammad recited [Qur'an 17:81] which says "Truth has arrived and falsehood has perished for falsehood is by its nature bound to perish."[31][32]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

So the question begs. Why did Mohammed destroy all of the stone idols - but one? The black stone (meteorite) that the pagans venerated as being given to them by the moon god. Just as all of the other black stones in the rest of the Kaabas in Arabia.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1084.0

Peter

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2010, 07:49:57 AM »
[disappeared then restored from database]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone
Other views

The reverence of the Black Stone evidently preceded the rise of Islam. The Semitic cultures of the Middle East had a tradition of using unusual stones to mark places of worship, a phenomenon which is reflected in the Hebrew Bible as well as the Qur'an.[8]

Grunebaum, in Classical Islam, says that the Kaaba was a place of pilgrimage even in pre-Islamic times, and was probably the only sanctuary built of stone, but that there are other sources which indicate there were other "Kaaba" structures in other parts of Arabia. A "red stone" was the deity of the south Arabian city of Ghaiman, and there was a "white stone" in the Ka'ba of al-Abalat (near the city of Tabala, south of Mecca). He points out that the experience of divinity of that time period was often associated with stone fetishes, mountains, special rock formations, or "trees of strange growth."[11]

The physical properties of the Black Stone were first described in Western literature in the 19th and early 20th centuries by European travelers in Arabia who visited the Kaaba in the guise of pilgrims. The Swiss traveler Johann Ludwig Burckhardt, who visited Mecca around 1815 in the guise of a pilgrim, provided a detailed description in his 1829 book Travels in Arabia:

It is an irregular oval, about seven inches in diameter, with an undulating surface, composed of about a dozen smaller stones of different sizes and shapes, well joined together with a small quantity of cement, and perfectly well smoothed; it looks as if the whole had been broken into as many pieces by a violent blow, and then united again. It is very difficult to determine accurately the quality of this stone which has been worn to its present surface by the millions of touches and kisses it has received. It appeared to me like a lava, containing several small extraneous particles of a whitish and of a yellow substance. Its colour is now a deep reddish brown approaching to black. It is surrounded on all sides by a border composed of a substance which I took to be a close cement of pitch and gravel of a similar, but not quite the same, brownish colour. This border serves to support its detached pieces; it is two or three inches in breadth, and rises a little above the surface of the stone. Both the border and the stone itself are encircled by a silver band, broader below than above, and on the two sides, with a considerable swelling below, as if a part of the stone were hidden under it. The lower part of the border is studded with silver nails.

Visiting the Kaaba in 1853, Sir Richard Francis Burton noted that: "The colour appeared to me black and metallic, and the centre of the stone was sunk about two inches below the metallic circle. Round the sides was a reddish brown cement, almost level with the metal, and sloping down to the middle of the stone. The band is now a massive arch of gold or silver gilt. I found the aperture in which the stone is, one span and three fingers broad."[12]

The Black Stone has been described variously as basalt lava, an agate, a piece of natural glass or — most popularly — a stony meteorite. It is evidently a hard rock, having survived so much handling. A significant clue to its nature is provided by an account of the Stone's recovery in 951 AD after it had been stolen 21 years earlier; according to a chronicler, the Stone was identified by its ability to float in water. If this account is accurate, it would rule out the Black Stone being an agate, basalt lava or stony meteorite, though it would be compatible with it being glass or pumice.[13]

It has been suggested that the Black Stone may be a glass fragment from the impact of a fragmented meteorite some 6,000 years ago at Wabar, a site in the Rub' al Khali desert some 1,100 km east of Mecca. The craters at Wabar are notable for the presence of blocks of silica glass, fused by the heat of the impact and impregnated by beads of nickel-iron alloy from the meteorite (most of which was destroyed in the impact). Some of the glass blocks are made of shiny black glass with a white or yellow interior and gas-filled hollows, which allow them to float on water. Although scientists did not become aware of the Wabar craters until 1932, they were located near a caravan route from Oman and were very likely known to the inhabitants of the desert. The wider area was certainly well-known; in ancient Arabic poetry, Wabar or Ubar (also known as "Iram of the Pillars") was the site of a fabulous city that was destroyed by fire from the heavens because of the wickedness of its king. If the estimated age of the crater is accurate, it would have been well within the period of human habitation in Arabia and the impact itself may have been witnessed.[13].

Pete note. This last explanation would be consistent with Dr. Amari's suggestion that the black stone came to Mecca by way of Yemen in the early 5th century AD, since it is immigrants of the Yemeni tribe of Khuzaa'h that built Mecca in the 4th century, and Yemen is a neighbor of Oman where the meteorite landed.

zameersd

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2010, 08:13:44 AM »
Hope this video shall provide you with a convincing answer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhPBlCdaLSQ
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 08:17:57 AM by zameersd »

Peter

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2010, 08:25:24 AM »
Hope this video shall provide you with a convincing answer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhPBlCdaLSQ

Hello zameersd, thank you for your response, and welcome to the forum! :)

Regarding the video, I will break it down into several posts as I watch it.
Naik claims that Muslims don't worship the Kaaba which I believe is true, just as Roman Catholics don't worship their idols, but understand them to represent God, Mary, Jesus, etc.

The term in question, as in the thread title, is "veneration".
Muslims venerate the Kaaba and black stone, just as Roman Catholics venerate their idols.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/venerate
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion

Muslims would have a difficult time denying they venerate the kaaba and black stone, since Mohammed's religion even requires traveling to it and marching around it 7 times while kissing, or at least pointing to, the black stone.
To my knowledge, not even Roman Catholics are required to venerate their statues (though I could be mistaken).

Peter

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2010, 08:30:00 AM »
Naik mentions Qibla.
It is my understanding that in the early years, or at least before Mohammed's night journey, Muslims faced Jerusalem, or could face any direction they wanted, to pray.
http://www.brotherpete.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm

The God of the Jews and Christians is omnipresent. He is everywhere. We don't have to point in a certain direction, nor at a certain time of day, to have our prayers heard.

As a point of interest, do you know where the Qiblas of the oldest mosques point to, according to the compass roses provided on the Islamic site "Islamic Awareness"?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1272.0

Peter

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2010, 08:38:14 AM »
Regarding circumambulation of the Kaaba, he mentions that is how a person "testifies there is only one Allah".
Of course Christians don't have to travel to Saudi Arabia or circumambulate an empty black cube to testify to that. We can simply testify to that because that is what our Gospel says

Mark 12:29 ... The Lord our God is one Lord: ... 32 ... for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Did you ever read the Gospel?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

Of course the pagans were circumambulating the Kaaba a few centuries before Islam. Indeed when Mohammed was younger he circumambulated it as a pagan before his encounter with what he believed was jinn in the cave.

In fact pagans and Muslims circumambulated the Kaaba shoulder to shoulder until the year before Mohammed's last Hajj, when Abu Bakr finally threw the pagans out of their own ritual.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 689:
    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    In the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Allahs Apostle made Abu Bakr the leader of the pilgrims, the latter (Abu Bakr) sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'

Curiously he prohibited naked circumambulation at the same time, which it would seem must have been addressed to Muslims, since in the same breath, he had already banned pagans from attending.

Peter

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2010, 08:49:50 AM »
Mohammed credited his tribe the Quraish with building the Kaaba from the ground up (though the actual historical evidence suggests that the Yemeni tribe of the Khuzaa'h built it in the early 5th century AD).

Sahih Muslim Book 007, Number 3078:
    'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger may peace be upon him) said to me: Had your people not been unbelievers in the recent past (had they not quite recently accepted Islam), I would have demolished the Ka'ba and would have rebuilt it on the foundation (laid) by Ibrahim; for when the Quraish had built the Ka'ba, they reduced its (area), and I would also have built (a door) in the rear.

The question we need to ask is where is the historical or archaeological evidence that suggests the Kaaba ever existed before around the late 4th or early 5th century AD when the Quraish FIRST BUILT the Kaaba? That is before the Kaaba was built, that Mohammed credited the Quraish with building?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1133.0

Where is the historical or archaeological evidence that Mecca ever even existed before the 4th century AD?
http://www.brotherpete.com/mecca.htm
(I'm not talking about the 7th and 8th century created history - that is - "traditions" that you have been taught.)
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1176.0
The equivalent would be for you to suggest to me that Jerusalem - the geographical epicenter of Judeo-Christian beliefs - did not exist before the 4th century AD. But of course we both know that there is abundant historical and archaeological record that suggests the opposite. Indeed there are a million artifacts just on display!

Absent any evidence then you are stuck understanding that the Islamic rituals of the Hajj and Umrah are little more than repackaged jinn devil and Arabian Star Family worship, just as Mohammed's closest followers understood them to be.

Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance .... (2.158) (Sahih al-Bukhari 2 Book 26 710)

http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

Why did Mohammed remove all of the 360 stone idols the pagans worshiped at the Kaaba ........... except one?

Have you ever read the Gospel, my friend?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

punisher

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2010, 01:32:28 AM »
Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, claimed that the stone was sent down by Allah Almighty to Prophet Abraham and his son Ishmael, peace be upon both of them, to give the precise location of where the Kaaba was to be built by them.  We believe that Prophets Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba.  Western Scientists have confirmed that the black stone, which resides near the Kaaba in the Holy City of Mecca, is an outside METEORITE OBJECT!

NASA'S CONFIRMATION:

""Stars" falling from the skies have been known since ancient times; rarely, stones are found that were tied to these "shooting stars". One such rock has been venerated by Islam (in its encased shrine in Mecca) for more than 1300 years. By the 19th Century, meteorites were identified correctly as samples from other parts of the Solar System. They are part of the nearly 500 tons of extraterrestrial rock material that reaches and enters the atmosphere each day. Most of that material is burned up by friction from the high speed of entry but meteoric dust can remain in the air and a very few individual blocks of material survive this passage to fall in the sea or on the ground as meteorites."  (http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect19/Sect19_2.html)

"The second city of Saudi Arabia is Mecca which contains the holiest shrine in Islam, a great plaza with a rectangular structure containing a meteorite that is considered to have fallen into the Muslim world directly from Heaven. Devout Muslims make the Hajj, a pilgrimage to this shrine required at least once in a lifetime. Here it is as seen in a Quickbird image:" (http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect4/Sect4_4.html)



****   Prophet Muhammad forbade us from worshiping any stone!  ****

The black stone and the Kaaba are not objects of worship in Islam


THE BLACK STONE IS NOT WORSHIPPED BY MUSLIMS

Christians regularly to justify their idolatrous practices - such as prayers to Mary - by claiming that Muslims "worship" the Black Stone at the Kaaba in Makkah.

Having been on hajj let me answer this based both on history and my own experiences.   The Black Stone - Hajar al- Aswad - is NOT mentioned in the Quran.  The Black Stone is located about five feet from the ground on the East corner of the Kaaba (this corner is known as "al-rukn al-Aswad").

While there are traditions about kissing or touching the Stone, its real significance is as marker of the point at which one starts the Tawaaf (circumambulation of the Kaaba as part of hajj or omra.)  Even the traditions which talk about kissing or touching the stone are VERY CLEAR that the Stone is JUST A STONE!

BUKHARI:

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667:

Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia:  Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "NO DOUBT, I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT ANYONE NOR HARM ANYONE. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you." 

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 675:

Narrated Zaid bin Aslam from his father who said:  "Umar bin Al-Khattab addressed the Corner (Black Stone) saying, 'BY ALLAH! I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT NOR HARM. Had I not seen the Prophet touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you.' Then he kissed it and said, 'There is no reason for us to do Ramal (in Tawaf) except that we wanted to show off before the pagans, and now Allah has destroyed them.' 'Umar added, '(Nevertheless), the Prophet did that and we do not want to leave it (i.e. Ramal).'"

MUSLIM:

Book 007, Number 2914:

Abdullah b. Sarjis reported:  I saw the bald one, i. e. 'Umar b. Khattib (Allah be pleased with him). kissing the Stone and saying: BY ALLAH. I AM KISSING WITH FULL CONSCIOUSNESS OF THE FACT THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND THAT YOU CAN NEITHER DO ANY HARM NOR GOOD; and if I had not seen Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) kissing you. I would not have kissed you. The rest of the hadith is the same.

The Stone is not be worshipped or regarded as anything but a marker.

===============================================

At hajj time you are actually unlikely to see the Black Stone: Masjid Al-Haram is just two crowded.  There is a line on the floor of the Masjid to tell you where the line of the Black Stone is.  Many hajis must perform Tawaaf NOT on the Kaaba floor but on the SECOND OR THIRD STORIES of the Majid Al-Haram!

On Levels #2 and #3 there are both marks on the floor and neon lights to show you where to start and stop tawaaf.

The scholars agree that waving in the direction of the Black Stone is sufficient recognition of its location as the start and stop of Tawaaf.

In actuality, waving in direction of the Black Stone is the best you will probably do at hajj time

=================================================

The Black Stone has had an interesting history during the Islamic period.  In 930 AD a ruler of Bahrain - who belonged to a branch of Ismailism known as the Karmatians - sacked Makkah and carried the Black Stone away for some 70 years until it was ransomed.

In the process, the Black Stone was cracked. It is now held together by a silver band.   The fact that Islam was able to function without the Black Stone for 70 years is one of the best illustrations that it is but a marker for Tawaaf - and NOT an object of worship.

Peter

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2010, 06:05:59 AM »
Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, claimed that the stone was sent down by Allah Almighty to Prophet Abraham and his son Ishmael, peace be upon both of them, to give the precise location of where the Kaaba was to be built by them.

If you are going to make ridiculous claims like this you are going to have to show us the historical or archaeological record that supports your preposterous claims. So far you are in epic failure in that regard in the Abraham & Hagar thread. http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1483.0
Piling another unsupportable fable on top of the first fable only further demonstrates that they are both fables.

Thousands of years of history isn't something that men just decide to sit down and create in the 7th and 8th century AD.

History is a record, that is kept by people who lived in or near the times that were written about. This is how we know that ALL Mohammedan history regarding events prior to the 6th century AD, when Islamic history BEGAN to be recorded, is one big 7th and 8th century lie.

If you cannot produce the historical and archaeological record of your ridiculous claims then we can all be confident that Islam is nothing more than 7th and 8th century fables - as detailed in this forum over and over. And I appreciate the help you have been in that regard as you already met epic failure in producing historical or archaeological record. http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1483.0

If the pagans had built the kaaba where the meteorite landed it would be located at Wabar, where the object that may be formed from melted sand that splashed up from the meteorite impact was likely from. But then that crater may be newer and it is irrelevant anyway because there were many such objects in Arabia that were venerated in many kaabas. Men have venerated unusual stones from our very beginnings.
The black stone in the kaaba was brought by pagan Arabs from Yemen in the early 5th century. There was a tent on the site before the pagans built their kaaba.

We believe that Prophets Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba.

You believe a big fat historically unsupportable lie as has been demonstrated at length in this thread. http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1483.0
You seem to not understand, that just because you are gullible enough to believe something, doesn't make it true.

Western Scientists have confirmed that the black stone, which resides near the Kaaba in the Holy City of Mecca, is an outside METEORITE OBJECT!

NASA'S CONFIRMATION:

""Stars" falling from the skies have been known since ancient times; rarely, stones are found that were tied to these "shooting stars". One such rock has been venerated by Islam (in its encased shrine in Mecca) for more than 1300 years. By the 19th Century, meteorites were identified correctly as samples from other parts of the Solar System. They are part of the nearly 500 tons of extraterrestrial rock material that reaches and enters the atmosphere each day. Most of that material is burned up by friction from the high speed of entry but meteoric dust can remain in the air and a very few individual blocks of material survive this passage to fall in the sea or on the ground as meteorites."  (http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect19/Sect19_2.html)

"The second city of Saudi Arabia is Mecca which contains the holiest shrine in Islam, a great plaza with a rectangular structure containing a meteorite that is considered to have fallen into the Muslim world directly from Heaven. Devout Muslims make the Hajj, a pilgrimage to this shrine required at least once in a lifetime. Here it is as seen in a Quickbird image:" (http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect4/Sect4_4.html)



****   Prophet Muhammad forbade us from worshiping any stone!  ****

The black stone and the Kaaba are not objects of worship in Islam

It is an object of Muslim VENERATION.
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion



THE BLACK STONE IS NOT WORSHIPPED BY MUSLIMS

Christians regularly to justify their idolatrous practices - such as prayers to Mary - by claiming that Muslims "worship" the Black Stone at the Kaaba in Makkah.

Roman Catholics VENERATE their statues, in the very same way that Muslims VENERATE the black stone.

But even Roman Catholics aren't REQUIRED to bow toward their objects of veneration, or travel to them, the way that Muslims, are not only REQUIRED TO BOW TOWARD AND VENERATE THEIR BLACK STONE but Muslims are even REQUIRED to squander their money and travel to the black stone to march around and around it EXACTLY AS THE PAGANS DID BEFORE MOHAMMED.

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2010, 06:17:02 AM »
Having been on hajj let me answer this based both on history and my own experiences.   The Black Stone - Hajar al- Aswad - is NOT mentioned in the Quran.  The Black Stone is located about five feet from the ground on the East corner of the Kaaba (this corner is known as "al-rukn al-Aswad").

While there are traditions about kissing or touching the Stone, its real significance is as marker of the point at which one starts the Tawaaf (circumambulation of the Kaaba as part of hajj or omra.)  Even the traditions which talk about kissing or touching the stone are VERY CLEAR that the Stone is JUST A STONE!

My blind friend, if it were just a stone, Muslims wouldn't bow toward it 5 times a day and travel to it to circumambulate it, exactly as the pagans did.
I'm glad my God in omniscient and doesn't reside in a black box in Mecca!

Indeed pagans and Muslims circumambulated the kaaba shoulder to shoulder until Mohammed kicked them out of their own ritual, in the year before his last hajj.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Number 365:
    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    On the Day of Nahr (10th of Dhul-Hijja, in the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Abu Bakr was the leader of the pilgrims in that Hajj) Abu Bakr sent me along with other announcers to Mina to make a public announcement: "No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka'ba. Then Allah's Apostle sent 'All to read out the Surat Bara'a (At-Tauba) to the people; so he made the announcement along with us on the day of Nahr in Mina: "No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka'ba."


Isn't that hilarious?!!! Can you imagine a bunch of naked pagans and Muslims circumambulating the kaaba?!!!! And you've actually been brainwashed into believing that could be of God, rather than Satan - the true author of Arabian paganism and Islam!!!!

BUKHARI:

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667:

Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia:  Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "NO DOUBT, I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT ANYONE NOR HARM ANYONE. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."  

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 675:

Narrated Zaid bin Aslam from his father who said:  "Umar bin Al-Khattab addressed the Corner (Black Stone) saying, 'BY ALLAH! I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT NOR HARM. Had I not seen the Prophet touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you.' Then he kissed it and said, 'There is no reason for us to do Ramal (in Tawaf) except that we wanted to show off before the pagans, and now Allah has destroyed them.' 'Umar added, '(Nevertheless), the Prophet did that and we do not want to leave it (i.e. Ramal).'"

MUSLIM:

Book 007, Number 2914:

Abdullah b. Sarjis reported:  I saw the bald one, i. e. 'Umar b. Khattib (Allah be pleased with him). kissing the Stone and saying: BY ALLAH. I AM KISSING WITH FULL CONSCIOUSNESS OF THE FACT THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND THAT YOU CAN NEITHER DO ANY HARM NOR GOOD; and if I had not seen Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) kissing you. I would not have kissed you. The rest of the hadith is the same.

The Stone is not be worshipped or regarded as anything but a marker.

===============================================

At hajj time you are actually unlikely to see the Black Stone: Masjid Al-Haram is just two crowded.  There is a line on the floor of the Masjid to tell you where the line of the Black Stone is.  Many hajis must perform Tawaaf NOT on the Kaaba floor but on the SECOND OR THIRD STORIES of the Majid Al-Haram!

On Levels #2 and #3 there are both marks on the floor and neon lights to show you where to start and stop tawaaf.

The scholars agree that waving in the direction of the Black Stone is sufficient recognition of its location as the start and stop of Tawaaf.

So don't try to pretend that this physical object isn't central to Mohammedan renamed pagan rituals.

In actuality, waving in direction of the Black Stone is the best you will probably do at hajj time

=================================================

The Black Stone has had an interesting history during the Islamic period.  In 930 AD a ruler of Bahrain - who belonged to a branch of Ismailism known as the Karmatians - sacked Makkah and carried the Black Stone away for some 70 years until it was ransomed.

In the process, the Black Stone was cracked. It is now held together by a silver band.  

Isn't that funny? And you can't even see it. Why didn't God preserve this pagan stone idol?
Even the pagans only used it as an object of VENERATION that REPRESENTED their moon god.

The fact that Islam was able to function without the Black Stone for 70 years is one of the best illustrations that it is but a marker for Tawaaf - and NOT an object of worship.

A stunning admission that Islam is not of God but purely pagan, if it would even occur to anyone that men would need a stone in order for their phony pagan 7th century religion to "function".

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2010, 03:18:33 AM »


My blind friend, if it were just a stone, Muslims wouldn't bow toward it 5 times a day and travel to it to circumambulate it, exactly as the pagans did.
I'm glad my God in omniscient and doesn't reside in a black box in Mecca![qoute]

My kind friend i have told u that we don't worship that Black Stone???

But if u force us than what we can do?????

Suppose if you say, """"I don't drink""""

and in reply i say, no you are Liar, u drink bear

and i force and force that u drink bear, infact the truth is that u don't drink bear???


That is you case????. You force to throw things on muslim, infact muslim don't do that???


Peter

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2010, 04:51:06 AM »


My blind friend, if it were just a stone, Muslims wouldn't bow toward it 5 times a day and travel to it to circumambulate it, exactly as the pagans did.
I'm glad my God in omniscient and doesn't reside in a black box in Mecca!

My kind friend i have told u that we don't worship that Black Stone???

In which post did I suggest that Muslims worship the black stone?

But if u force us than what we can do?????

Suppose if you say, """"I don't drink""""

and in reply i say, no you are Liar, u drink bear

and i force and force that u drink bear, infact the truth is that u don't drink bear???


That is you case????. You force to throw things on muslim, infact muslim don't do that???

You say you believe in Jesus too, but you reject the the very blood that would save you - the whole subject of the "Good News" of the new covenant - to follow Mohammed. You believe in Jesus the same way Satan does. You believe that He existed, and that He was the Messiah, but you reject His purpose.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Muslims4Jesus

Do Muslims regard the black stone with reverential respect?



Do Muslims honor the black stone with a ritual act of devotion?


Peter

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2010, 06:23:41 AM »
I'm sorry I confused you my friend. My mistake. Let's try it again.



My blind friend, if it were just a stone, Muslims wouldn't bow toward it 5 times a day and travel to it to circumambulate it, exactly as the pagans did.
I'm glad my God in omniscient and doesn't reside in a black box in Mecca!

My kind friend i have told u that we don't worship that Black Stone???

In which post did I suggest that Muslims worship the black stone?

But if u force us than what we can do?????

Suppose if you say, """"I don't drink""""

and in reply i say, no you are Liar, u drink bear

and i force and force that u drink bear, infact the truth is that u don't drink bear???


That is you case????. You force to throw things on muslim, infact muslim don't do that???

Do Muslims regard the black stone with reverential respect?



Do Muslims honor the black stone with a ritual act of devotion?


punisher

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2010, 06:58:03 AM »
I'm sorry I confused you my friend. My mistake. Let's try it again.



My blind friend, if it were just a stone, Muslims wouldn't bow toward it 5 times a day and travel to it to circumambulate it, exactly as the pagans did.
I'm glad my God in omniscient and doesn't reside in a black box in Mecca!

My kind friend i have told u that we don't worship that Black Stone???

In which post did I suggest that Muslims worship the black stone?

But if u force us than what we can do?????

Suppose if you say, """"I don't drink""""

and in reply i say, no you are Liar, u drink bear

and i force and force that u drink bear, infact the truth is that u don't drink bear???


That is you case????. You force to throw things on muslim, infact muslim don't do that???

Do Muslims regard the black stone with reverential respect?



Do Muslims honor the black stone with a ritual act of devotion?




See

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1050.msg4097#msg4097

Peter

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2010, 07:03:37 AM »
Do Muslims regard the black stone with reverential respect?
Do Muslims honor the black stone with a ritual act of devotion?

punisher

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2010, 07:10:07 AM »
Do Muslims regard the black stone with reverential respect?
Do Muslims honor the black stone with a ritual act of devotion?

You answer is in this verse of Bible study it carefully????


"I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word.  (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 138:2)"

Peter

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2010, 12:59:52 PM »
Do Muslims regard the black stone with reverential respect?
Do Muslims honor the black stone with a ritual act of devotion?

You answer is in this verse of Bible study it carefully????


"I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word.  (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 138:2)"

These are yes or no questions.

Do Muslims regard the black stone with reverential respect? Yes or No?

Don't you revere and respect the stone? If not why do you travel to it and point to it on each of the 7 times you walk around the kaaba?

Do Muslims honor the black stone with a ritual act of devotion? Yes or No?

Why are you running so hard away from the truth my friend? You are a Muslim and should be proud that you perform a ritual act around the black stone like Mohammed and the pagans did. Are all Muslims as ashamed as you apparently are when they are performing Tawaf and have to point to the black stone each time they walk around the kaaba?

punisher

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2010, 01:16:29 AM »

These are yes or no questions.

Do Muslims regard the black stone with reverential respect? Yes or No?

Don't you revere and respect the stone? If not why do you travel to it and point to it on each of the 7 times you walk around the kaaba?

Do Muslims honor the black stone with a ritual act of devotion? Yes or No?

Why are you running so hard away from the truth my friend? You are a Muslim and should be proud that you perform a ritual act around the black stone like Mohammed and the pagans did. Are all Muslims as ashamed as you apparently are when they are performing Tawaf and have to point to the black stone each time they walk around the kaaba?


The answer for both above question is NO

we don't give any respect to Black stone we gave respect to black stone because our prophet respected it by kissing

Because i give u one example

Having been on hajj let me answer this based both on history and my own experiences.   The Black Stone - Hajar al- Aswad - is NOT mentioned in the Quran.  The Black Stone is located about five feet from the ground on the East corner of the Kaaba (this corner is known as "al-rukn al-Aswad").

While there are traditions about kissing or touching the Stone, its real significance is as marker of the point at which one starts the Tawaaf (circumambulation of the Kaaba as part of hajj or omra.)  Even the traditions which talk about kissing or touching the stone are VERY CLEAR that the Stone is JUST A STONE!

BUKHARI:

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667:


Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia:  Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "NO DOUBT, I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT ANYONE NOR HARM ANYONE. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you." 

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 675:

Narrated Zaid bin Aslam from his father who said:  "Umar bin Al-Khattab addressed the Corner (Black Stone) saying, 'BY ALLAH! I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT NOR HARM. Had I not seen the Prophet touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you.' Then he kissed it and said, 'There is no reason for us to do Ramal (in Tawaf) except that we wanted to show off before the pagans, and now Allah has destroyed them.' 'Umar added, '(Nevertheless), the Prophet did that and we do not want to leave it (i.e. Ramal).'"

MUSLIM:

Book 007, Number 2914:

Abdullah b. Sarjis reported:  I saw the bald one, i. e. 'Umar b. Khattib (Allah be pleased with him). kissing the Stone and saying: BY ALLAH. I AM KISSING WITH FULL CONSCIOUSNESS OF THE FACT THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND THAT YOU CAN NEITHER DO ANY HARM NOR GOOD; and if I had not seen Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) kissing you. I would not have kissed you. The rest of the hadith is the same.

The Stone is not be worshipped or regarded as anything but a marker.

===============================================

At hajj time you are actually unlikely to see the Black Stone: Masjid Al-Haram is just two crowded.  There is a line on the floor of the Masjid to tell you where the line of the Black Stone is.  Many hajis must perform Tawaaf NOT on the Kaaba floor but on the SECOND OR THIRD STORIES of the Majid Al-Haram!

On Levels #2 and #3 there are both marks on the floor and neon lights to show you where to start and stop tawaaf.

The scholars agree that waving in the direction of the Black Stone is sufficient recognition of its location as the start and stop of Tawaaf.

In actuality, waving in direction of the Black Stone is the best you will probably do at hajj time

=================================================

The Black Stone has had an interesting history during the Islamic period.  In 930 AD a ruler of Bahrain - who belonged to a branch of Ismailism known as the Karmatians - sacked Makkah and carried the Black Stone away for some 70 years until it was ransomed.

In the process, the Black Stone was cracked. It is now held together by a silver band.   The fact that Islam was able to function without the Black Stone for 70 years is one of the best illustrations that it is but a marker for Tawaaf - and NOT an object of worship.

Why muslim gave respect to black stone only the Prophet Muhammad gave respect to him???

Nothing more or less


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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2010, 06:10:43 AM »

These are yes or no questions.

Do Muslims regard the black stone with reverential respect? Yes or No?

Don't you revere and respect the stone? If not why do you travel to it and point to it on each of the 7 times you walk around the kaaba?

Do Muslims honor the black stone with a ritual act of devotion? Yes or No?

Why are you running so hard away from the truth my friend? You are a Muslim and should be proud that you perform a ritual act around the black stone like Mohammed and the pagans did. Are all Muslims as ashamed as you apparently are when they are performing Tawaf and have to point to the black stone each time they walk around the kaaba?


The answer for both above question is NO

we don't give any respect to Black stone we gave respect to black stone because our prophet respected it by kissing

You say "no" you don't respect it, and then indicate that you do indeed respect it just like Mohammed did, in the very same sentence! Do you see what a cartoon your personal shame has resulted in? This is the very definition of VENERATION, that you wish you could deny.
The FACT IS that you venerate the stone, and perform ritual worship centered around it just like the pagans did from which Mohammed received his ritual. Everything you wrote in your broken defense against your veneration of the black stone, proves that you in fact DO VENERATE IT.

punisher

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2010, 06:54:51 AM »

These are yes or no questions.

Do Muslims regard the black stone with reverential respect? Yes or No?

Don't you revere and respect the stone? If not why do you travel to it and point to it on each of the 7 times you walk around the kaaba?

Do Muslims honor the black stone with a ritual act of devotion? Yes or No?

Why are you running so hard away from the truth my friend? You are a Muslim and should be proud that you perform a ritual act around the black stone like Mohammed and the pagans did. Are all Muslims as ashamed as you apparently are when they are performing Tawaf and have to point to the black stone each time they walk around the kaaba?


The answer for both above question is NO

we don't give any respect to Black stone we gave respect to black stone because our prophet respected it by kissing

You say "no" you don't respect it, and then indicate that you do indeed respect it just like Mohammed did, in the very same sentence! Do you see what a cartoon your personal shame has resulted in? This is the very definition of VENERATION, that you wish you could deny.
The FACT IS that you venerate the stone, and perform ritual worship centered around it just like the pagans did from which Mohammed received his ritual. Everything you wrote in your broken defense against your veneration of the black stone, proves that you in fact DO VENERATE IT.


We do what is the order of Allah and his Prophet nothing more and less??

if anything that don't belong to Allah and his Prophet, that is not Islam

brother?

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2010, 06:59:48 AM »

These are yes or no questions.

Do Muslims regard the black stone with reverential respect? Yes or No?

Don't you revere and respect the stone? If not why do you travel to it and point to it on each of the 7 times you walk around the kaaba?

Do Muslims honor the black stone with a ritual act of devotion? Yes or No?

Why are you running so hard away from the truth my friend? You are a Muslim and should be proud that you perform a ritual act around the black stone like Mohammed and the pagans did. Are all Muslims as ashamed as you apparently are when they are performing Tawaf and have to point to the black stone each time they walk around the kaaba?


The answer for both above question is NO

we don't give any respect to Black stone we gave respect to black stone because our prophet respected it by kissing

You say "no" you don't respect it, and then indicate that you do indeed respect it just like Mohammed did, in the very same sentence! Do you see what a cartoon your personal shame has resulted in? This is the very definition of VENERATION, that you wish you could deny.
The FACT IS that you venerate the stone, and perform ritual worship centered around it just like the pagans did from which Mohammed received his ritual. Everything you wrote in your broken defense against your veneration of the black stone, proves that you in fact DO VENERATE IT.


We do what is the order of Allah and his Prophet nothing more and less??

if anything that don't belong to Allah and his Prophet, that is not Islam

brother?

That's right! You VENERATE the black stone, just like Mohammed and the pagans did.

punisher

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2010, 06:44:55 AM »


That's right! You VENERATE the black stone, just like Mohammed and the pagans did.

What ever u say or whatever u feel or whatever u think, I don't care

Peter

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Re: Veneration of the Black Stone in the Ka'aba
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2010, 11:44:46 AM »


That's right! You VENERATE the black stone, just like Mohammed and the pagans did.

What ever u say or whatever u feel or whatever u think, I don't care

It isn't about what I think or feel.
It is a simple matter of fact. Muslims VENERATE the black stone just like the pagans did, and just as the pictures I included of those pagan rituals in this thread.
Just like the Arabian jinn devil worshipers did as well as the Arabian Star Family worshipers.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1282.0

http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/venerate
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion