Author Topic: Where Do the Qiblas of the Oldest Mosques Point To?  (Read 14526 times)

Peter

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Where Do the Qiblas of the Oldest Mosques Point To?
« on: March 31, 2010, 09:29:12 AM »
The quibla is the direction to Mecca that Muslims point themselves when doing their repetitive prayers. There is a niche on modern mosques that indicates the direction of Mecca.
Some time back I saw an article that mentioned that the quiblas of the oldest mosques do not point to Mecca, but are off by 30 degrees and more. I thought this would make a great project subject and today got inspired to Google a question as to what the quiblas actually do point to and found an interesting site and put on the "history" threads.
_____________

http://www.brotherpete.com/mecca.htm#temple_ilat

There are references to lots of other temples, and even to a great temple "highly revered by all the Arabs', that was of the Bythemaneas, located near Ilat in the Aqaba gulf area.

From a website
"The Qiblah of the oldest mosques in Mecca, Iraq and Egypt do not align with Mecca. Instead they align with a point in northern Arabia. This has caused some Orientalists to speculate that they may be aligned with Jerusalem, but the calculations don't work out. The Qiblah of the earliest mosques face a point south of Jerusalem but north of Mecca."

Is this yet another smoking gun? Might the oldest mosques be pointing to that temple of the Bythemaneas in Ilat in the northern Gulf of Aqaba?

Even Mohammed's own tribe, the Quraish went on Hajj, or pilgrimage, to places to the north twice a year, long after the Kaaba in Mecca was built, indicating that the Kaaba in Mecca was a lesser temple. One of the journeys during the summer was to the city of Taif where there was also a temple called Kaabah of Ellat, or Kaabah of the Sun. "This Kaabah was more significant and much older than the Kaabah of Mecca. All Arabs, including the tribe of Quraish from which Mohammed came, venerated this Kaabah."

The above from Dr. Amari's work.
___________________

Later I saw an Islamic site arguing that Patrica Crone was wrong in her analysis as to where the mosque pointed to.
I concur, if his understanding of her work is correct, in the first place.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html


"Figure 2: The direction of Qiblah and Jerusalem from Baghdad. The blue arrow shows the direction of the early mosque."

"The earliest mosque in Baghdad was off by 30."

Now look at the middle east map below, and guess at about where that qibla IN BAGDAD points to.
I held a piece of paper along the blue line, and then scrolled the map up into it with my mouse until it got to Bagdad. The blue line crosses just below Tabuk.
The mosque points to northern Saudi Arabia, where the great pilgrimage to the "great temple "highly revered by all the Arabs'" was supposed to be. Even the Quraish went there on pilgrimage from Mecca.



Peter

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Re: Where Do the Quiblas of the Oldest Mosques Point To?
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2010, 10:19:43 AM »
(disappeared and recovered from database)

"The earliest mosque built in Wasit was off by 33° from the true Qiblah."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasit,_Iraq

Wasit (Arabic,????) is a place in Wasit Governorate, south east of Kut in eastern Iraq.

Al-K?t (Arabic: ??????; BGN: Al K?t; also spelled Kut-Al-Imara or Kut El Amara) is a city in eastern Iraq, on the left bank of the Tigris River, about 100 miles south east of Baghdad. As of 2003[update] the estimated population is about 374,000 people.[1] It is the capital of the province long known as Al Kut, but since the 1960s renamed Wasit.

So if you put the edge of your paper on this blue line and scroll the page up with your mouse, you will find that from a place a hundred miles SE of Baghdad (scale on map) the line passes once again, just to the south of Tabuk. Very much confirming our first line.



Figure 1: The direction of Qiblah and Jerusalem from Wasit. The blue arrow shows the direction of the early mosque.
   

Peter

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Re: Where Do the Quiblas of the Oldest Mosques Point To?
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2010, 11:54:01 AM »
OK. Now hold the edge of your paper and scroll your mouse up and see where it runs to in a line from Cairo.



Figure 4: The direction of Qiblah and Jerusalem from Cairo. The blue arrow shows the direction of the early mosque.

Shaaaazam! Would you lookie thare! It runs right through the middle of the Gulf of Aqaba and travels just to the south of Tabuk. It triangulates to the same place as the mosques in Iraq do!

Peter

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Re: Where Do the Quiblas of the Oldest Mosques Point To?
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2010, 12:31:18 PM »
Could they be pointing to Dedan?
http://bibleatlas.org/regional/dedan.htm

Here's a Tabuk link ancient city on spice route
http://www.splendidarabia.com/location/tabuk/

Tabuk province
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabuk_Province

If I understand correctly Dedan is the ancient capital of Saudi Arabia. Today called Al-`Ula.

"After a gap of many years I finally returned to the oasis of Al-Ula, my favorite exploring site in all of Arabia. Not only is the wadi al-Ula the most beautiful oasis in Arabia, it is an archeological haven, having been inhabited since 3000 BC."

"The Hiltons pointed out that the Lihyanites built a temple at Dedan, which had a font that was nearly the same in dimensions as the one at Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem.  The cistern (font) at the Lihyanite temple has stairs going into it, and if one stands in it, the lower half of their body would be below the surrounding surface of the earth.

The Saudi Arabian Ministry of Antiquities does not know the purpose of the font, however it notes the Lihyanite Temple. The modern name for Dedan is Ula, which means "to exalt". In antiquity Dedan and its surrounding villages were called Qura Arabiyyah."

"The Lihyanites placed great importance on offerings and sacrifices, paid an annual offering (talal) at the temple. Their Solomon like temples appear to have been used for sacrificing she-camels, black camels and other livestock to the God Dhu Ghaibat."
http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/media/HTML/21ctqqx1/Lihyanites%20%20The%20most%20Firtile%20Parts.htm?n=0


Modern name Dedan
"The Al-`Ula oasis (also Al Ola, Arabic ?????  al-?ul?; Also Dedan), some 110 km southwest of Tayma (380 km north of Medina) in northwestern Arabia was located at the incense route."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-%60Ula

"The older history of the oasis has been divided into several phases. The Dedanite kingdom spans to the seventh and sixth century BC. Dedan is mentioned in the "Harran Inscriptions". In these it is told how Nabonidus  the king of Babylonia made a military campaign to northern Arabia in 552 BC or somewhat later, conquering Tayma, Dedan and Yathrib, the old Medina.[1]  It is thought that around the turn to the fifth century BC the kingdom became hereditary."

Interactive satellite map from Maplandia of Al-Ula
http://www.maplandia.com/saudi-arabia/madinah/al-ula/

Peter

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Re: Where Do the Quiblas of the Oldest Mosques Point To?
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2010, 02:12:57 PM »
Well I opened up my paint program, and the compass roses on the Islamic site, together, and used the same method above to transfer the compass directions to the map in paint. Much to my amazement....

I'll replace the map in the first post with it too.




Peter

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Re: Where Do the Quiblas of the Oldest Mosques Point To?
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2010, 09:09:44 AM »
If Mecca is supposed to have been the center of Islam since Adam where are all the ancient mosques?
In a web search I can't find any built prior to Mohammed. There are other temples in Arabia, but none of them mosques. Take for example the old temple in Dedan which, unlike Mecca, actually has a history that precedes the 4th century AD. According to this guy Dedan was founded about 3,000 BC, while Dr. Amari puts it at about 6,000 BC based on inscriptions there of battles. The guy at this site says they sacrificed camels in their temple.

Why is it that all of the temples in Arabia were built for performing pagan rites, just like the Kaaba in Mecca, when it was built in the early 5th century AD?

http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/media/HTML/21ctqqx1/Lihyanites%20%20The%20most%20Firtile%20Parts.htm?n=0




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Re: Where Do the Quiblas of the Oldest Mosques Point To?
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2010, 09:58:23 AM »
"Mada'in Saleh: also called Al-Hijr (Wikipedia)

Also called Al-Hijr, this is an ancient city located in northern Saudi Arabia, about 1400 km to the north of Riyadh. Mada'in Saleh is considered to be one of the most important and oldest ancient cities in the country. Mada'in Saleh lies to the northwest of the city of al-Ula..."
"Mada'in Saleh was recognized by the UNESCO as a site of patrimony[5], the first world heritage site in Saudi Arabia. The story of these people called the people of Thamud (including petra) is mentioned several times in the Quran along with prophet Saleh."

"A religious area, known as Jabal Ithlib, is located to the north-east of the site.[4] It is believed to have been originally dedicated to the Nabatean deity Dushara." (Wikipedia) (map)

AnnaMuslim

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Re: Where Do the Quiblas of the Oldest Mosques Point To?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2010, 11:36:11 AM »
(disappeared then recovered from database)

The quibla is the direction to Mecca that Muslims point themselves when doing their repetitive prayers. There is a niche on modern mosques that indicates the direction of Mecca.
Some time back I saw an article that mentioned that the quiblas of the oldest mosques do not point to Mecca, but are off by 30 degrees and more. I thought this would make a great project subject and today got inspired to Google a question as to what the quiblas actually do point to and found an interesting site and put on the "history" threads.

http://www.brotherpete.com/mecca.htm#temple_ilat


Quote
There are references to lots of other temples, and even to a great temple "highly revered by all the Arabs”, that was of the Bythemaneas, located near Ilat in the Aqaba gulf area.

From a website
"The Qiblah of the oldest mosques in Mecca, Iraq and Egypt do not align with Mecca. Instead they align with a point in northern Arabia. This has caused some Orientalists to speculate that they may be aligned with Jerusalem, but the calculations don't work out. The Qiblah of the earliest mosques face a point south of Jerusalem but north of Mecca."

Dear Pete
More lies ????? I googled this phrase, quess what, 4 hits and all connected to brother. What article written by whom???? A ghost did it (was the Ghost holy??)

Which Mosques? (the word mosque is Spanish by the way meaning mosquita yep mosquitos)

Your claims are like all your claims and statments without merit or truth.
Tell the story of Islam as you read it, please dont conjure up human errors? possible human errors/ speculation about human errors?
The prophet did not order for any Mosque to point in any direction but MAKKAh (initially for 16 months Masjidul AQSA) the change was for the Jews not to boast and mock the Muslims about their quibla.

Quote
Is this yet another smoking gun? Might the oldest mosques be pointing to that temple of the Bythemaneas in Ilat in the northern Gulf of Aqaba?

You the one holding the gun and this is an absurd question, the quibla could have been out in pre technology days as a genuine mistake mad by the IMAM of the MOSQUE, highly unlikely that a nation that could navigate by the stars would not know direction and no names of the Mosques are mentioned to verify your claims YOUR CLAIM IS UTTERLY AND ENTIRELY MEANINGLESS: THERE IS NOTHING TO PROVE HERE.

Quote
Even Mohammed's own tribe, the Quraish went on Hajj, or pilgrimage, to places to the north twice a year, long after the Kaaba in Mecca was built, indicating that the Kaaba in Mecca was a lesser temple. One of the journeys during the summer was to the city of Taif where there was also a temple called Kaabah of Ellat, or Kaabah of the Sun. "This Kaabah was more significant and much older than the Kaabah of Mecca. All Arabs, including the tribe of Quraish from which Mohammed came, venerated this Kaabah."
The above from Dr. Amari's work. where is his evidence?? proof of this statement????
Later I saw an Islamic site arguing that Patrica Crone was wrong in her analysis as to where the mosque pointed to.
I concur, if his understanding of her work is correct, in the first place.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html

this link is bogus, does not exist, another ploy to convince unsuspecting ignorant fools??


"Figure 2: The direction of Qiblah and Jerusalem from Baghdad. The blue arrow shows the direction of the early mosque."

"The earliest mosque in Baghdad was off by 30°." HUMAN ERROR?

Now look at the middle east map below, and guess at about where that qibla IN BAGDAD points to.
I held a piece of paper along the blue line, and then scrolled the map up into it with my mouse until it got to Bagdad. The blue line crosses just below Tabuk.
The mosque points to northern Saudi Arabia, where the great pilgrimage to the "great temple "highly revered by all the Arabs”" was supposed to be. Even the Quraish went there on pilgrimage from Mecca.




Again where did your story (tall tale come from??????
What's your reference Dr Rafat is hardly a reference, what books can I read to find this information

I am certain if you had proof you would be announcing it to the world, the muslim scholars would warning Muslims about it but no-one has heard of your claims!!!!! NOT A SOUL

Please send this to SPAM!!!!!!!!
   
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 07:24:10 AM by Peter »

Peter

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Re: Where Do the Quiblas of the Oldest Mosques Point To?
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2010, 11:44:22 AM »
Pete wrote -
Later I saw an Islamic site arguing that Patrica Crone was wrong in her analysis as to where the mosque pointed to.
I concur, if his understanding of her work is correct, in the first place.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html

(As I earlier suspected and later learned from the Islamists themselves, Patricia Crone was right, and the Islamists misunderstood or lied about what she wrote.)

AnnaMuslim wrote -
this link is bogus, does not exist, another ploy to convince unsuspecting ignorant fools??

Why don't you try clicking on the link to the ISLAMIC SITE "Islamic Awareness" again before continuing with more false accusation.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html

If you live in a Muslim country maybe they have the ability to censor this stunning truth, somehow.

Again where did your story (tall tale come from?Huh??
What's your reference ......

From the Islamic site I referenced.

...... Dr Rafat is hardly a reference, what books can I read to find this information

I am certain if you had proof you would be announcing it to the world, the muslim scholars would warning Muslims ......

Is that some kind of a sick twisted joke? Muslim "scholars" kill truth - the whole world over.
Why aren't they warning you that there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD or its Kaaba before the early 5th century AD when pagan immigrants from Yemen built it for star and demon worship?

So now you to help me announce to the whole world where the ISLAMIC SITE shows that the Qibla of the oldest mosques point to.

...... about it but no-one has heard of your claims!!!!! NOT A SOUL

Please send this to SPAM!!!!!!!!

Your reply would work better if you broke it up into smaller pieces. Try starting with A SINGLE point that you consider most important. Since the one link that you were incorrect about answers the rest of your post perhaps you can reply if there was something important that I missed.

Peter

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Re: Where Do the Quiblas of the Oldest Mosques Point To?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2010, 12:06:31 PM »
From a website
"The Qiblah of the oldest mosques in Mecca, Iraq and Egypt do not align with Mecca. Instead they align with a point in northern Arabia. This has caused some Orientalists to speculate that they may be aligned with Jerusalem, but the calculations don't work out. The Qiblah of the earliest mosques face a point south of Jerusalem but north of Mecca."[/td][/tr][/table]

Dear Pete
More lies ????? I googled this phrase, quess what, 4 hits and all connected to brother. What article written by whom???? A ghost did it (was the Ghost holy??)

Maybe your search engine is broken! :D
Have you noticed yet how your false accusations wind up making you the liar? Are you beginning to see how Satan is working in your life?

The search that you claim didn't net any other sites.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=The+Qiblah+of+the+oldest+mosques+in+Mecca%2C+Iraq+and+Egypt+do+not+align+with+Mecca.+Instead+they+align+with+a+point+in+northern+Arabia.+This+has+caused+some+Orientalists+to+speculate+that+they+may+be+aligned+with+Jerusalem%2C+but+the+calculations+don%27t+work+out.+The+Qiblah+of+the+earliest+mosques+face+a+point+south+of+Jerusalem+but+north+of+Mecca.&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=cbfdba0083fffc9e

That netted the Islamic site that I cited (that foolishly speculated the Qibla point to Beersheba) in the cache link below.
But it's all unimportant if you go to the other ISLAMIC SITE that you claimed the link didn't work to, in the prior post.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:41fn4EsT-DUJ:jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/2009/04/older-mosques-point-to-beersheba.html+The+Qiblah+of+the+oldest+mosques+in+Mecca,+Iraq+and+Egypt+do+not+align+with+Mecca.+Instead+they+align+with+a+point+in+northern+Arabia.+This+has+caused+some+Orientalists+to+speculate+that+they+may+be+aligned+with+Jerusalem,+but+the+calculations+don%27t+work+out.+The+Qiblah+of+the+earliest+mosques+face+a+point+south+of+Jerusalem+but+north+of+Mecca.&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Peter

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Re: Where Do the Quiblas of the Oldest Mosques Point To?
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2010, 01:55:20 PM »
Notice also that the authors Crone and Cook that the Islamic website cites, in an effort to vilify them, are actually proven by the Islamists to be correct!
Where did Crone and Cook mention Jerusalem in what the Islamists quoted?
Crone and Cook mention that the Qiblas point to a place in NW Arabia, which, as we can see in the thread exercise above, is exactly what they do!
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html


Maybe the Islamists got the wrong idea because the Qibla of the oldest mosque in Arabia (in Medina) originally pointed to Jerusalem.
http://islam.thetruecall.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=213

But I just this moment realized that if you draw a line on the map above, from Medina to Jerusalem, it crosses the point that our other lines triangulate to! To where the deity Dushara was worshiped! Isn't that funny?!

Peter

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Re: Where Do the Quiblas of the Oldest Mosques Point To?
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2010, 10:56:36 AM »
So AnnaMuslim, did the link to that ISLAMIC site work, or not?
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html

AnnaMuslim

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Re: Where Do the Quiblas of the Oldest Mosques Point To?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2010, 11:01:43 AM »
here is the original posting

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7984556.stm


Mecca mosques 'wrongly aligned'


All mosques have a niche indicating the direction of the Kaaba
Some 200 mosques in Islam's holiest city, Mecca, point the wrong way for prayers, reports from Saudi Arabia say.
All mosques have a niche showing the direction of the most sacred Islamic site, the Kaaba, an ancient cube-like building in Mecca's Grand Mosque.
But people looking down from recently built high-rises in Mecca found the niches in many older mosques were not pointing directly towards the Kaaba.
Some worshippers are said to be anxious about the validity of their prayers.
There have been suggestions that laser beams could be used to make an exact measurement.
Tawfik al-Sudairy, Islamic affairs ministry deputy secretary, downplayed the problem in remarks quoted by the pan-Arab newspaper al-Hayat.
"There are no major errors but corrections have been made for some old mosques, thanks to modern techniques," he said.
"In any case, it does not affect the prayers."



I have corrected a few Quiblas myself off by some as much as 40 degrees, some as little as 5 deg but the distance from Makkah meant that they pointed to Persia or egypt depending

BUT TO CONCLUDE THAT THEY CHOSE A SPOT IS COMPLETELY MISLEADING> GOOGLE EARTH HAS A QUIBLA FUNCTION NOW FOR EVRYONE TO CHECK AND I AM SURE MORE THAN 200 MASAJIDS WILL BE OUT,

WELL thank you PETER I will put out this notification to my Muslim brothers, time to check the Quibla.

IF MY QUIBLA IS OUT UNINTENTIONALLY< ALLAH IS MOST MERCIFUL< ALLAH WILL FORGIVE ME AND ACCEPT MY SALAAH.

Regards


Peter

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Re: Where Do the Quiblas of the Oldest Mosques Point To?
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2010, 11:14:34 AM »
Isn't that hilarious?! Obama wants to make the Muslims "feel good" about their contributions to "tools of navigation", when they couldn't even get right how to point their mosques in Mecca, even as far as Medina!!! :D
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1534.msg6435#msg6435

But just yesterday you considered the matter of such vital importance that you falsely accused....

"Again where did your story (tall tale come from?Huh??"
"Your claims are like all your claims and statments without merit or truth."
"this link is bogus, does not exist, another ploy to convince unsuspecting ignorant fools??"

But whose post is as you described? Mine or yours?
You even wrote .....

"I am certain if you had proof you would be announcing it to the world, the muslim scholars would warning Muslims about it but no-one has heard of your claims!!!!!"

Yet today, rather than announcing it to the world, and helping the Muslim "scholars" warn their sorely duped antichrist flocks, it doesn't matter at all to you that three of the oldest mosque Qibla all triangulate to a place where the pagan deity Dushara was worshiped.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1121.0



See how easy it is to make false accusations, while lying about and ignoring the truth, when you choose to drown in a sea of falsehood? When you follow the father of lies.

Peter

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Re: Where Do the Quiblas of the Oldest Mosques Point To?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2010, 01:02:38 PM »
Just as one might suspect, the guys at islamic-awareness.org premise regarding Patricia Crone was false.
http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/qurarch.htm

"Yet, the earliest evidence from outside Muslim tradition regarding the direction in which Muslims prayed, and by implication the location of their sanctuary, points to an area much further north than Mecca, in fact somewhere in north-west Arabia (Crone-Cook 1977:23). Consider the archaeological evidence which has been and is continuing to be uncovered from the first mosques built in the seventh century:

According to archaeological research carried out by Creswell and Fehervari on ancient mosques in the Middle East, two floor-plans from two Umayyad mosques in Iraq, one built at the beginning of the 8th century by the governor Hajjaj in Wasit (noted by Creswell as, "the oldest mosque in Islam of which remains have come down to us" - Creswell 1989:41), and the other attributed to roughly the same period near Baghdad, have Qiblas (the direction which these mosques are facing) which do not face Mecca, but are oriented too far north (Creswell 1969:137ff & 1989:40; Fehervari 1961:89; Crone-Cook 1977:23,173). The Wasit mosque is off by 33 degrees, and the Baghdad mosque is off by 30 degrees (Creswell 1969:137ff; Fehervari 1961:89)."