Author Topic: Muhammad's Night Journey  (Read 20046 times)

Peter

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Muhammad's Night Journey
« on: April 10, 2010, 09:04:34 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RG-IPHaR6o
smaller 18 mb version of the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvJdRdB3ys4

text version with links
http://www.brotherpete.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm

Why might Muhammad have told the story of his night journey?

Mohammed's Night Journey

No Muslim can deny the importance of Mohammed's night journey in Islam, because this trip determined the Islamic rituals of praying five times a day, and performing ablution - or washing before prayer. In other words Mohammed's night journey should impact the lives of 1.5 billion Muslims all over the world - five times - each and every day.

sura 17.1 Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

Mohammed's alleged overnight trip covered the 1,000 miles from Mecca to Jerusalem, a trip to heaven, and a return to Mecca by morning, and is described in part as follows:

Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0309:
It is narrated on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I was brought al-Buraq Who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place his hoof a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets. I entered the mosque and prayed two rak'ahs in it, and then came out and Gabriel brought me a vessel of wine and a vessel of milk.

So Mohammed flew on al-Buraq to the temple in Jerusalem, tied it up to a ring "the prophets" had used in the past, and went on in to the Temple to pray. Because of the fantastic nature of Mohammed's claims, some 21st century Muslims try to suggest that this was a vision or dream, but according to perhaps the most highly regarded historian of Islam:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 228:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The sights which Allah's Apostle was shown on the Night Journey when he was taken to Bait-ul-Maqdis (i.e. Jerusalem) were actual sights, (not dreams). And the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Quran is the tree of Zaqqum (itself).

Additionally, the rock enshrined in the Dome of the Rock on the temple mount, is supposed to be where Mohammed and Baraq launched from, for the leg of the trip to heaven. So it would be untenable to suggest that Mohammed's journey was a dream or vision, while at the same time claiming that he launched from a very much physical and tangible rock, on the temple mount.

Doubtless there were many skeptics when Mohammed recounted the details of his trip the morning after his night journey on the flying animal. As Dr. Rafat Amari points out in the introduction to "Islam: In Light of History", Abu Bakar (the first assistant of Mohammed who became his first Caliph) confirmed Mohammed's descriptions of the temple he had visited, because Abu Baker claimed he had once taken a journey to Jerusalem and had seen the temple himself, and remembered it to be just as Mohammed had described it.

There is, however, a little difficulty with their accounts. The temple had been torn down over 500 years before their claims of personal visits to it. Indeed if Mohammed had actually hitched his flying animal anywhere near where the temple had been, as he claimed "the prophets" had hitched theirs, at the time in history that his night flight is supposed to have occurred, he would have found that the temple mount was being used as a garbage dump. The Muslim's own Caliph Omar would have observed this when he marched into Jerusalem in 639 AD, not very many years after Mohammed offered his account detailed above.

Did Ishmael and Abraham ride back and forth to Mecca on flying donkey-mules, as Ibn Ishak embellished, in an effort to explain away the geographical impossibility of Islamic so-called tradition?

From Wikipedia: "The Buraq was also said to transport Abraham (Ibrahim) when he visited his wife Hagar and son Ishmael. According to tradition, Abraham lived with one wife in Syria, but the Buraq would transport him in the morning to Mecca to see his family there, and take him back in the evening to his Syrian wife.[5]"


While Mohammed and Bakr didn't need to be concerned about their largely illiterate followers traveling the 1,000 miles from Mecca to Jerusalem, to scrutinize their accounts, what excuse do today's Muslims have in this 21st century information age?

For many accounts of Mohammed's night flight by the chroniclers of Islam please visit the following link to our X-Muslim friends at answering-islam.org.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/nightjourney.htm
 As they also inquire,

"In light of all this, we ask the following questions:

    * What Temple did Muhammad visit, enter and pray at before ascending to heaven?
    * Seeing that the Quran mentions a journey to a Mosque that did not exist during the lifetime of Muhammad, how can you consider the Quran to be 100% the word of God?
    * In light of the fact that both the Quran and the Islamic traditions contain this historical error, how can you trust either source to provide you with reliable information on the life of Muhammad and the first Muslims?
    * Does not the fact that the Quran mentions a Mosque which was only erected in AD 691 prove that there were Muslims who unashamedly and deceitfully added stories to the Quranic text and passed them off as revelation from God?
    * If you cannot find an answer to this historical problem within the Quran, why do you still remain a Muslim?"

For a look at historical accounts of other cults with similar ascension stories to Mohammed's please click here.
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Flying camels, or baraqs, were nothing new to Islamic tradition. It was how they explained away the transportation impossibilities that resulted from the fictional history the Islamic "historians" had created.

For example it was one of these mythical flying camels that enabled Abraham to pay visits to his son Ishmael in Mecca, a 1000 miles away. Islamic tradition also holds that it was a baraq that enabled Ishmael to attend his father Abraham's funeral in Hebron. Are we beginning to get the picture? Any time the thousand miles between Mecca and Israel presented the obvious geographical impossibility, of any suggestion of Abraham or Ishmael ever having been in Mecca, simply break out the flying camel! Hmmm .... yea..... like dat, like dat!

But then the flying camel wasn't invented by Muslim historians but had been in mythology from long before. It was utilized in Persian Zoroastrian mythology.

Quoting Dr. Amari
"The Pahlavi Texts of the book of Dinkard are Zoroastrian canonical comments on the Avesta, considered part of the Zoroastrian scriptures. It mentioned KaiKhusrois, a mythological prophet who transformed Vae, the god of the air, into the shape of a camel. He then mounted him and went where the immortal mythological Persians dwelt."
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Indeed, when combined with the "Mecca" page, what we learn is that every Muslim on earth, bows toward and is supposed to travel to and circumambulate, the very same black stone moon god idol, that the pagans bowed toward and circumambulated before Mohammed. Now we learn that the reason that Muslims bow toward that black stone idol five times a day, and wash before doing so, is because Mohammed claimed to have taken a trip on a flying animal. Beyond the obvious questions about flying animals, that even an 8 year old might ask, Mohammed's visit to and prayer in a temple, is also shown to be a physical impossibility. Some suggest it was a reference to the mosque that was built on the temple mount, but no "prophets" ever tied camels up to that mosque, let alone that it wasn't built until 685 AD, long after Mohammed was dead and buried.

The real reason Muslims pray five times a day and perform ablution, is likely because Mohammed became deeply involved in the second century occult cult of the Sabians, by way of four of his relatives. This cult apparently had so much influence over Mohammed's daily life, that some in his own tribe referred to him as "the Sabian". In the Quran Mohammed lists Sabians right alongside Christians and Jews.

surah 2:62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day...

surah 5:69 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the sabians and the Christians...

And guess what? The occult Sabian cult prayed five times a day and performed ablution.
Excerpt from "Occultism in the family of Mohammed"

"Waraqa was one of the founders of the group called Ahnaf. In the first narration of the life of Mohammed, written by Ibn Hisham in the 8th century A.D.,  we read:

The Honafa', or Ahnaf, was a small group  started when four Sabians at Mecca agreed. Those four were Zayd bin Amru bin Nafil, Waraqa bin Naufal, Ubaydullah bin Jahsh, and Uthman Bin al-Huwayrith.[xxxi][31]

The four founders of Ahnaf were all related to Mohammed. They were descendants of Loayy, one of Mohammed's ancestors. Furthermore, Waraqa bin Naufal and Uthman Bin al-Huwayrith were cousins of Khadijah. We know this from Mohammed's genealogy presented by Ibn Hisham.[xxxii][32]  Ubaydullah Bin Jahsh was a maternal cousin to Mohammed. Mohammed married his widow, Um Habibeh. All this reveals the close connection between Mohammed and the founders of the group."

Before fundamental, Quran and Hadith following - true Muslims - received Western financing through oil purchase to expand their murder of innocent non-Muslims all around the world - with 2 million killed in the Sudan alone by the Islamic beast during this Islamic Second Jihad - the only thing I would have likely recalled knowing about Arabia would have been what I learned as a child. This would include stories like Aladdin's lamp from which a genie emerged when it was rubbed, and Ali Baba and his magic flying carpet. Interesting now in adulthood to learn about Mohammed's night flight that 1.5 billion people are not only expected to believe, but also to follow, five times a day.
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More on the 5 daily prayers of the cult of the Sabians whose ritual Mohammed lifted for Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyqaXCRIotM
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related post chat
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2286.msg9524#msg9524
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Addition 1-14-11 from "Prophet of Doom"
http://prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_Doom_12_Delusions_of_Grandeur.Islam
Audio version
http://prophetofdoom.net/audio/Prophet_of_Doom_12_Delusions_of_Grandeur.mp3

Delusions of Grandeur

Allah’s House was tainted with the lingering effects of the Satanic Verses so Muhammad needed a new Qiblah - a new direction to go and a new object to exploit. He needed to replace the Ka'aba with a more credible shrine. So the wannabe prophet conjured up one of the most preposterous lies ever uttered in the name of religion. He said that he was flown on a winged steed to the Temple in Jerusalem. There, he was welcomed triumphantly by all the former scriptural big shots. They were waiting for him, assembled in a solemn conclave of prophet solidarity.

His imagination running wild, Muhammad leapt from the Temple Mount skywards, ascending from one heaven to another, finding himself in the presence of Allah, who promptly dismissed him, demanding that Muslims moon him fifty times a day. Hallucination over, Muhammad awoke the following morning in the house of his late uncle Talib. The vision still dancing vividly before his eyes, he cried out to his niece, "Omm Hani, during the night I prayed in the Temple of Jerusalem." She begged him not to expose such frivolity to the Quraysh, but he persisted.

Ishaq:184 "Umm, Abu Talib's daughter, said: "The Apostle went on no journey except while he was in my house. He slept in my home that night after he prayed the final night prayer. A little before dawn he woke us, saying, 'O Umm, I went to Jerusalem.' He got up to go out and I grabbed hold of his robe and laid bare his belly. I pleaded, 'O Muhammad, don't tell the people about this for they will know you are lying and will mock you.' He said, 'By Allah, I will tell them.' I told a negress slave of mine, 'Follow him and listen.'"

As the story spread, Muhammad’s fledgling cadre of followers abandoned him. The disillusionment was confirmed by Katib al Wackidi, "Upon hearing this many became renegades who had prayed and joined Islam." The Sira says: Ishaq:183 "Many Muslims gave up their faith. Some went to Abu Bakr and said, 'What do you think of your friend now? He alleges that he went to Jerusalem last night and prayed there and came back to Mecca.' Bakr said that they were lying about the Apostle. But they told him that he was in the mosque at this very moment telling the Quraysh about it. Bakr said, 'If he says so then it must be true. I believe him. And that is more extraordinary than his story at which you boggle.' Then Allah sent down a Qur'an surah concerning those who left Islam for this reason: 'We made the vision which we showed you only, a test for men. We put them in fear, but it only adds to their heinous error.'" [Qur'an 13:33] Once again, Muhammad flips out and it's everyone's fault but his own. And while it's not surprising anymore, the 13th surah was handed down in Medina, not Mecca.

What's surprising is that the "Thunder" surah actually rebukes Muhammad’s claim of a miraculous journey. After saying, Qur'an 76:4 "Those who deny will wear collars and chains, yokes (of servitude) tying their hands to their necks; they will be the inmates of Hell.... They will witness Our (many) exemplary punishments! Verily, your Lord is severe in retribution," we are told that Muhammad was unable to perform a miracle. Qur'an 13:7 "The unbelievers say, 'Why was no sign or miracle sent down to him by his Lord.' But you are only the bearer of bad news - of warnings." The admission is repeated: Qur'an 13:27 "The unbelievers say, 'How is it that no sign miracle was sent down to him by his Lord.' Say, 'God leads whosoever He wills astray.'" There were deceptions but no miracles.

The Islamic god was not only powerless, he was schizophrenic. Qur'an 13:30 "They do not believe in Ar-Rahman. Tell them, 'He is my Lord. There is no other ilah but He. In Him I have placed my trust.'" The dark lord says to those who are mocking his prophet: Qur'an 13:32 "Many an Apostle have they mocked before you; but I seized them. How awful was My punishment then! ...The unbelievers plot, but for them is torment in this life and a far more severe torture in Hell." Then the spirit of the Qur'an brags, "He sends thunderbolts and smites whom He pleases." Imagine worshiping a god this nasty.

Suggesting that he wasn't always impotent, Ar-Rahman boasts: Qur'an 13:38 "It was not for any Apostle to come up with a miracle or sign unless it was granted by Our permission." But he was capricious and forgetful. "For every age there is a Book revealed. Ar-Rahman abrogates, blots out, or confirms (whatever He wants)." And we better watch out: Qur'an 13:41 "Do they not see Us advancing from all sides into the land (of the disbelievers), reducing its borders (by giving it to believers in war victories)? (When) Allah dooms there is none who can postpone His doom. Sure, they devised their plots, but We are the best schemers." But his con didn't fool very many: Qur'an 13:43 "Yet the disbelievers say: 'You are not a Messenger.' Tell them: 'This Scripture is sufficient witness between me and you.'"

Now that we know there were no miracles, and that these troubled words are the lone witness to the validity of Muhammad’s claims, let's try to make sense of his fictitious journey. As always, it will be difficult to tell where the prophet's imagination subsided and that of the Muslim sages began. For example, when questioned by the Quraysh, we are told that the angel-less and miracle-less messenger convinced his spirit friend to erect a model of Jerusalem in their midst. As further evidence of the Night Journey, Muhammad said that while whizzing over a caravan the noise of his flying steed frightened a camel to death. Upon returning to Mecca, someone is said to have confirmed that a camel had indeed been anxious. It served as proof.

The only other Qur'anic mention of the flight of fancy is found in the 17th surah which opens: "Glory to Him who carried His votary by night from the Sacred Mosque (at Mecca), to the farther Temple, the environs which we have blessed, that we might show him some of Our Signs. Verily He hears and sees."

The six-year-old Aisha, who married the fifty-year-old prophet within days of Khadija's death, said: Ishaq:183 "The Prophet's body remained where it was. Allah removed his spirit at night." In that there was no way to see Jerusalem at night in the seventh century, the cover of darkness must have suited Islam’s demonic spirit. Aisha further indicted her husband's tale with: Bukhari:V4B53N400 "Once the Prophet was bewitched so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done." Finishing the job, she said: Bukhari:V4B54N457 "Whoever claimed that Muhammad saw his Lord is committing a great fault, for he only saw Gabriel."

While Aisha's criticism was incriminating, there was a bigger problem. There was no Temple in Jerusalem. Six centuries years before al-Buraq took flight, the Romans destroyed it. By 70 A.D. not one stone stood upon another. And that would make both the Islamic god and his prophet liars.

Bukhari:V4B55N585 "'O Allah’s Apostle! Which mosque was first built on the surface of the earth.' He said, 'The mosque Haram in Mecca.' 'Which was built next.' He replied 'The mosque of Al-Aqsa in Jerusalem.' 'What was the period of construction between the two.' He said, 'Forty years.'" No matter how one goes about interpreting these facts and fantasies, Muhammad lied. If the Ka'aba was built by Allah, it was several billion years old. If by Adam, then the year was 4000 B.C. If by Abraham, it was 2000 B.C. If historical evidence is our guide, the year was about 500 A.D. The Temple of Solomon was built in 967 B.C. (precisely 1,000 years before Yahshua's crucifixion and resurrection in 33 A.D.). The Dome of the Rock was raised on the foundations of the Roman Temple of Jupiter in 691 A.D. As for the mosque, Al-Aqsa was constructed over a Roman basilica on the southern end of the Temple Mount many centuries later. Muhammad got the order wrong as well as the gap separating them.

Much more on this propersterous pile of unwitnessed nonsense that got Mohammed laughed out of Mecca at the following panel on this thread
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1253.msg9820#msg9820

Peter

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Re: MOHAMMED'S NIGHT JOURNEY
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2010, 07:31:15 AM »
Is it a surprise to find this thread as what would seem a tad underviewed?
I believe that indicates 21st century Muslim dread, of being required to believe the concept of Mohammed literally riding around on a literal flying animal, to a mosque in Jerusalem that did not exist, and then to heaven and back to Mecca, by morning.
Even 8 year-old kids can distinguish Ali Babba's flying carpet as being a fantasy.

From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buraq

"Abraham

The Buraq was also said to transport Abraham (Ibrahim) when he visited his wife Hagar and son Ishmael. According to tradition, Abraham lived with one wife in Syria, but the Buraq would transport him in the morning to Mecca to see his family there, and take him back in the evening to his Syrian wife.[4]"

As also reported by Ibn Ishaq "Tarikh al-Tabari", I, page 102 per Dr. rafat Amari "Islam In Light of History" page 66

How else could the 1200 kilometer distance between where Abraham actually lived, and where Mecca was eventually built in the 4th century AD, be explained away, about 1,000 years before the first caravan route was ever established along the Red Sea?
Must have been ....... something like ...... flying camels! Yea, like dat .... like dat! Shhhurrrre .....
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1483.0



Mohammed certainly wasn't the first to invoke a mythical winged animal!
Though in the case of the Zoroastrian scriptures it was their mythical prophet that rode on their mythical winged camel.
Not as in Islam where Mohammed actually claimed to have ridden it himself!




Peter

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Re: MOHAMMED'S NIGHT JOURNEY
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2011, 12:08:02 PM »
This remains one of the more underviewed threads in this forum section. It is likely because this is one of the more embarrassing things in Mohammed's religion for modern Muslims. Mohammed's claim to have ridden a flying donkey-mule to Jerusalem and having prayed in a temple on Mount Moriah, that did not exist at the time. Indeed had been torn down over 500 years previously.

Yet for some Muslims blasphemy against YHWH is instead provided as a substitute for an explanation of Mohammed's nonsense.

look to this unicorn , there is No fossil found about it yet tell me , did you Serpent paul invented this too , shame on him.



In Isaiah 34:7 it is written, "And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls, and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness." Like the overwhelming majority of the Bible this is pure nonsense! To try and tie the Bible to God is an insult to our Creator

Besides blaming Paul who came along about 700 years after this passage was penned, that references a much earlier passage from Deuteronomy, we can see what happens when a Muslim applies a mind that is trained to oppose YHWH. A mind that must believe that truth is a lie because it holds lies as truth. Through his disobedient, devious and blasphemous mindset he applies the modern artist's imagination of the above fictitious animal, to scripture.

However the unicorn is described as a large, strong and aggressive animal that could not be domesticated. It most likely looked and behaved very much like a rhinoceros. The kind of animal that might have been killed to extinction because of it's uselessness and danger.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/unicorns-in-bible

Here's the one-horned rhino from India which was hunted nearly to extinction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Rhinoceros



Nor did the unicorn fly like the fabled Zoroastrian flying camel, the Greek Pegasus, and Mohammed's flying donkey-mule. At least the Zoroastrians and Greeks were smart enough to have fabled characters riding on their fabled flying animals. Nobody was dumb enough to claim they rode on it themselves. That's why so many - even ignorant illiterates - in Mohammed's day had the good sense to leave his phony religion after hearing his ridiculous tale. What's your excuse?

Why would Muslims believe Mohammed did other than lie when even the temple he claimed to have prayed inside of, and fantasized about tying his flying steed "to the ring used by the prophets", had been torn down over 600 years earlier?

Peter

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Re: MOHAMMED'S NIGHT JOURNEY
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2011, 05:47:33 PM »
Continued from the last item on the OP on 1-14-11
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1253.0

While I'm not a psychiatrist, this story sounds delusional: Bukhari:V4B54N429/ V5B58N227 "The Prophet said, 'While I was at the House or standing place in a state midway between sleep and wakefulness, an angel recognized me as the man lying between two men. [That sounds provocative.] A golden tray full of wisdom and belief was brought to me and my body was cut open from the throat to the lower part of my pubic area.' The Prophet said, 'My abdomen was washed with Zamzam water taking away doubt or polytheism or pre-Islamic beliefs or error. Then he took out my heart and filled it with belief and wisdom before returning it to its place. Then Al-Buraq, a white animal, smaller than a mule and bigger than a donkey was brought to me and I set out with Gabriel.' The Prophet said, 'The animal's step was so wide it reached the farthest point within reach of the animal's sight."

From the Sira: Ishaq:182 "While I was in the Hijr, Gabriel came and stirred me with his foot. He took me to the door of the mosque and there was a white animal, half mule, half donkey, with wings on its sides yet it was propelled by its feet. He mounted me on it. When I mounted, he shied. Gabriel placed his hand on its mane and said [to the jackass], 'You should be ashamed to behave this way. By God, you have never had a more honorable rider than Muhammad.' The animal was so embarrassed, it broke into a cold sweat."

In a Hadith from Muslim's Collection, Muhammad dispenses with the surgery and adds two ritual prayers in the Temple along with a refreshing drink: Muslim:C75B1N309 "The Messenger said: 'I was brought on al-Buraq, an animal white and long. I mounted it and came to the Temple in Jerusalem. I tethered it to the ring used by the prophets and entered the mosque, praying two rak'ahs in it. Then I came out [of the nonexistent building] and Gabriel brought me a vessel of wine and one of milk. I chose the milk, and he said: "You have chosen the natural thing," and took me to heaven.'"

Ishaq:182 "When we arrived at the Temple in Jerusalem, we found Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, along with a company of prophets. I acted as their imam in prayer." In case you're curious: "Moses was a ruddy faced man, thinly fleshed, curly haired with a hooked nose. Jesus was a reddish man with lank wet hair and many freckles." Ishaq:184 "After the completion of my business in Jerusalem, a ladder was brought to me finer than any I have ever seen. [Mind you, since there was no wood in Mecca, he had never seen a ladder.] An angel was in charge of it and under his command were 12,000 angels each of them having 12,000 angels under his command." Imagine that, 144,000,000 angels holding a ladder. "And none knows the armies of Allah better than he."

Knowing Muhammad, what do you suppose he asked to see first? If you guessed "Hell," you win. Ishaq:185 "Muhammad said, 'Order Malik to show me Hell.' 'Certainly! O Malik, show Muhammad Hell.' Thereupon he removed its covering and the flames blazed high into the air until I thought that they would consume everything." In Islam, wrong is right, down is up, hell is where Allah lives.

Bukhari:V4B54N429 and Muslim:C75B1N309 converge at this point and we learn that hell is in the nearest heaven: "'When I reached the nearest heaven, Gabriel said to heaven's gatekeeper, "Open the gate." The guard asked, "Who is it?" He said, "Gabriel." The gatekeeper said, "Who is accompanying you?" Gabriel said, "Muhammad." The guard replied, "Has he been called?" Gabriel said, "Yes." Then it was said, "He is welcomed. What a wonderful visit his is!" Then I met Adam and greeted him and he said, "You are welcomed, O son and Prophet." Gabriel said, "These parties on his right and on his left are the souls of his descendants. Those of them on his right are the companions of Paradise and the parties which are on his left are the inmates of Hell. So when Adam looked towards his right side, he laughed, and when he looked left, he wept.'"

Ishaq gets a little graphic at this point: Ishaq:185 "Adam reviewed the spirits of his offspring. The infidels excited his disgust. Then I saw men with lips like camels. In their hands were pieces of fire like stones which they thrust into their mouths. They came out their posteriors." Before I tell you who deserved this fate, think about the folks who irked Muhammad most. Who wouldn't share what he coveted, who neglected him, allowing him to be abused? "I was told they sinfully devoured the wealth of orphans." Others had "bellies like camels." Some were "maddened by thirst." "Then I saw women hanging by their breasts. They had fathered bastards."

But not all was hellish. Speaking of the son whose wife he would steal in an act of incest, the prophet said, Ishaq:186 "He took me into Paradise and there I saw a damsel with dark red lips. I asked her to whom she belonged, for she pleased me much when I saw her. She said, Zayd [Muhammad’s adopted son]. The apostle gave Zayd the good news about her." She was his consolation prize, I suppose.

Returning to Muslim and Bukhari: "'Then we ascended to the second heaven. The guard at the gate asked, "Who is it?" Gabriel said, "Gabriel." The gatekeeper asked, "Who is with you?" He said, "Muhammad" "Has he been sent for?" He said, "Yes." The guard said, "He is welcomed. What a wonderful visit his is!" and opened the gate. Then I met Jesus and Yahya (John) who said, "You are welcomed, O brother and Pious Prophet."'"

Rising above Jesus: "'We ascended to the third heaven. The keeper of the gate asked, "Who is it?" "Gabriel." The gatekeeper asked, "Who is with you?" "Muhammad." "Has he been sent for?" "Yes." "He is welcomed. What a wonderful visit his is!" He opened the gate.' The Prophet added: 'There I met Joseph and greeted him. He replied, "You are welcomed, brother and Prophet!" We ascended to the fourth heaven and again the same questions and answers were exchanged with the gatekeeper. There I met Idris [Enoch]. He said, "Welcome Prophet." We ascended to the fifth heaven and again the same questions and answers were exchanged at the gate with its guard. There I greeted Aaron.'" The Islamic heaven is filled with Jews, and it has more gates and guards than do most prisons. I wonder if that's a coincidence?

Whatever the reason, they were all flung open for the great Arab prophet: "'Then we ascended to the sixth heaven and again the same questions and answers were exchanged. There I met and greeted Moses. When I proceeded on, he started weeping and on being asked why, he said, "Followers of this youth who was sent after me will enter Paradise in greater number than my followers.'" This passage provides a glimpse into Muhammad’s corroded heart. In an effort to elevate himself he had the audacity to claim Moses was jealous of him.

Leaving Jewish prophets in the dust, our dynamic duo scampered ever higher: "'We ascended to the seventh heaven and again the same questions and answers were exchanged with the gatekeeper. There I greeted Abraham. He ascended with me till I was taken to such a height, I heard the scraping of pens. I was shown Al-Bait-al-Ma'mur (Allah’s House). I asked Gabriel about it and he said, 'This is where 70,000 angels perform prayers daily and when they leave they never return to it (a fresh batch arrives daily).' I was shown Sidrat-ul-Muntaha (a tree) and I saw its Nabk fruits which resembled clay jugs. Its leaves were like elephant ears. Four rivers originated at its root; I asked Gabriel about them. "The two hidden rivers are in Paradise, and the apparent ones are the Euphrates and the Nile."'" At least he had that part right. He was in a state of denial.

"Fifty prayers were enjoined on me [by Allah]." But Moses wasn't pleased: "'I descended till I reached Moses who asked, "What have you done?" I said, "I have been ordered to offer fifty prayers a day." He said, "Your followers cannot bear fifty prostrations. I tested people before you and tried my level best to bring the tribe of Israel to obedience [Islam]. Your followers cannot put up with such an obligation. So, return to your Lord and request a reduction in the burden." I returned and requested Allah (for reduction) and He made it forty. I had a similar discussion with Moses. Then I returned to Allah for reduction and He made it thirty, then twenty, then ten. Then I came to Moses who repeated the same advice. Ultimately Allah reduced it to five. When I came to Moses the last time, he said, "What have you done?" I said, "Allah has made it five only." He repeated the same advice but I said that I had requested so many times I felt ashamed and surrendered (to Allah’s final order). When I left, I heard a voice saying, "I have passed My Order and have lessened the burden on My Worshipers."'"

You're brought before the creator of the universe and all you talk about is how many times he wants to be mooned with "burdensome and obligatory," mind-numbing ritualistic prostrations? I don't think so. But then again, thinking is why I'm not a Muslim. So, while we are on the subject, think about this: why would Islam’s lone prophet leave Allah’s Ka'aba in Mecca and fly to Yahweh's Temple in Jerusalem to get into heaven? In all of Muhammad’s flights of fancy there are few more troubling questions than this one.

Muhammad’s Muslims were curious, albeit about minutiae. They wanted to know what the heavenly host looked like. Bukhari:V4B55N607 "Allah’s Apostle said, 'On the night of my Ascension to Heaven, I saw Moses who was a thin person, looking like one of the men of the tribe of Shanua; and I saw Jesus with a red face as if he had just come out of a bathroom. [I swear, I am not making this stuff up.] And I resemble Abraham more than any of his offspring.'" And it's okay to scour the Bible for stories because: Bukhari:V4B56N667 "The Messenger said, 'Convey (my teachings) to the people even if it were a single sentence, and tell others the stories of Israel (which have been taught to you), for it is not sinful to do so. And whoever tells a lie on me intentionally, will surely take his place in the Hell Fire.'"

It bears mention that the Night Journey is far more than an obscure theological story to Muslims. I personally met with members of Hamas, al-Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, and al-Aqsa Martyr.' Brigade in Bethlehem in December, 2001. They told me in all seriousness that the Night's Journey was the basis for the Islamic claim to Jerusalem. What's more, they were willing to kill and die to take it back in the name of their Prophet.

Back in Mecca, and ever in character, the bruised messenger did what all similarly insecure people do. He projected his morbid self-delusion upon his critics. As he had with the Satanic Verses, he had his god say that the Night's Journey was a trial. Bukhari:V8B77N610 "'We granted the vision of the ascension to the heavens, Miraj, which We showed you as an actual eye witness but as a trial for people.' [Qur'an 17:60] Allah’s Apostle actually saw with his own eyes the vision of all the things which were shown to him on the Night Journey to Jerusalem. It was not a dream."

The 17th surah, named "Children of Israel," reports: Qur'an 17:60 "Your Lord circumscribes mankind and He showed you the vision and the accursed tree of the Qur'an [Zaqqom, the torture tree of Hell]. It was a bone of contention for men, a trial for them. Thus do We instill fear and make them afraid." The surah claims: "Verily, We gave Moses the Torah...and to David, We gave the Book of Psalms." Speaking of Jews, he says: Qur'an 17:7 "We shall rouse Our slaves to shame and ravage you, disfiguring your faces. They will enter the Temple as before and destroy, laying to waste all that they conquer." To his shame, Muhammad did rouse Muslims to attack Jews. However, his militants couldn't have entered or destroyed what the Romans had eradicated 600 years earlier. Allah is mistaken, again. But by lying to us this way, we have come to know him better.

The most laughable passage in the 17th surah follows the usual rant: "Dread His punishment. Indeed the Lord's torment is to be feared. He will inflict severe anguish." Qur'an 17:59 "Nothing stops Us from sending signs and proofs except that earlier people rejected them as lies. We sent to Thamud the she-camel as a clear sign, but they treated her cruelly." It’s hard to imagine anyone believes this is scripture. The Islamic god just said: "We don't do miracles any more because the Thamud hurt our camel."

After saying the Qur'an was so well written jinn and men couldn't conspire to compose the likes of it, we discover that Muhammad doesn't measure up and there is no Qur'an: Qur'an 17:90 "They say, 'We shall not believe you (Muhammad), until you cause a spring to gush forth from the earth [like Moses]. Or until you have a garden, and cause rivers to flow in their midst [like you claim Allah does]. Or you cause the sky to fall upon us in chunks, as you say will happen [like Yahweh did to Sodom and Gomorrah]. Or you bring angels before us face to face [like Abraham]. Or you have a house adorned with gold [like David or Solomon], or you ascend up into the skies [like Yahshua (Jesus)]. No, we shall not have faith in you unless you send down to us a book that we can read [like the Bible].'" This surah was the seventieth chronologically, and yet the Meccans claimed Muhammad didn't have anything to read. There was no Qur'an. There were no miracles.

Peter

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Re: MOHAMMED'S NIGHT JOURNEY
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2011, 07:49:00 AM »
http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=58&translator=1&start=0&number=227#227

...when I went over the first heaven, I saw adam there. Gabriel said (to me). 'This is your father, adam; pay him your greetings.' So I greeted him and he returned the greeting to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious son and pious Prophet.' Then Gabriel ascended with me till we reached the second heaven. Gabriel asked for the gate to be opened. It was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel answered, 'Gabriel.' It was asked, 'Who is accompanying you?' Gabriel replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel answered in the affirmative. Then it was said, 'He is welcomed. What an excellent visit his is!' The gate was opened. When I went over the second heaven, there I saw Yahya (i.e. John) and 'Isa (i.e. Jesus)

Should we be surprised that the spirit of a jealous fallen angel named Satan that filled Muhammad, inspired him to fantasize that the sinless Messiah, the spotless Lamb of God, the fulfillment of the old covenant and Savior of the world, should be down next to the lowest level - one rung above fallen Adam - and the 2nd longest distance of separation from Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah"?

When I went (over the sixth heaven), there I saw Moses. Gabriel said (to me),' This is Moses; pay him your greeting. So I greeted him and he returned the greetings to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious brother and pious Prophet.' When I left him (i.e. Moses) he wept. Someone asked him, 'What makes you weep?' Moses said, 'I weep because after me there has been sent (as Prophet) a young man whose followers will enter Paradise in greater numbers than my followers.'

At least Muhammad's fantasy left no question about there being two distinct groups.
Followers of Moses and followers of Muhammad.

Peter

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Re: MOHAMMED'S NIGHT JOURNEY
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2012, 08:28:14 AM »
From Faith Freedom link that I added to the beginning of the OP.

From
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061011234733AAWqW4B

"Why did Mohammad make his night journey to "heaven" from a lonely cousin's house?
Ishaq:184 “Umm (Hani), Abu Talib's daughter, said: “The Apostle went on no journey except while he was in my house. He slept in my home that night after he prayed the final night prayer. A little before dawn he woke us, saying, ‘O Umm, I went to Jerusalem.' He got up to go out and I grabbed hold of his robe and laid bare his belly. I pleaded, ‘O Muhammad, don't tell the people about this for they will know you are lying and will mock you.' He said, ‘By Allah, I will tell them.' I told my negress slave, ‘Follow him and listen.'”
Muhammad passionately fell in love with his first cousin-sister, Umm Hani bt Abu Talib, but for some unknown reason his beloved uncle, Abu Talib did not give her hand to Muhammad when Muhammad requested. Instead, she was married to a pagan, Hubayrah. But Muhammad’s adulterous relation with Umm Hani (real name Fakitah, also known as Hind) continued. He used to sleep in her house, when no one was around. Such an incidence took place when Muhammad returned from his failed mission at Taif, after the deaths of his first wife, Khadijah and his uncle Abu Talib. Returning from Taif, he took shelter in Ka’ba. But at nightfall, when all were asleep, he stealthily went to Umm Hani’s house and spent the night with her. When the people did not find him at Ka’ba, they went looking for him and when he was discovered in the house of Umm Hani, he was embarrassed, so was Umm Hani. To hide the truth, he concocted the story of his night journey to Jerusalem and Paradise from Umm Hani’s house (more precisely, from her bed), which many converted Muslims found too incredible to believe and left Islam. This made him sad and withdrawn. Soon, after such an adulterous affair was leaked out, he left Mecca and settled in Medina . But his undying love for Umm Hani remained aflame.
Later, when Muhammad became militarily strong and conquered Mecca , he went to Umm Hani’s house and stayed there overnight, praying and chit-chatting with her. Hubayrah, Umm Hani’s husband had foreseen the fall of Mecca and had fled to Najran. So, Umm Hani was living in her house, separated from her pagan husband, and Muhammad was there comforting her, in open transgression of the Qur’anic code.
Does it make sense why he concocted the unbelievable fable of his journey to "heaven" in the morning?"


Is it a stretch to suggest that Muhammad was laughed out of town and skulked off to Medina with his tail between his legs? Not only because of the adulterous affair, but because of the preposterous cover story he he made up, most of the few followers he had gleaned (perhaps less than a hundred over 13 years) left Islam. Since even those ignorant, isolated, SW Arabian desert dwellers had the good sense to leave Islam, what on earth is wrong with 21st century Muslims, in this information age?
Let alone all of the contradictions.

Narrated Masruq: 'aisha said, "If anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen his Lord, he is a liar, for Allah says: 'No vision can grasp Him.' (6.103) And if anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen the Unseen, he is a liar, for Allah says: "None has the knowledge of the Unseen but Allah."  (Bukhari Book #93, Hadith #477)

PeteWaldo

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Re: Questions for Imams Regarding Islamic Tradition
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2014, 12:42:11 PM »
You not thinking for yourself, you regurgitating the same fale accusations made in the time of Muhammad by the Atheist. (YES YOUR OBJECTIONS OF MUHAMMAD IS EXACTLY LIKE THE ATHEIST OF THE TIME)

Come on Muj, it wasn't atheists that made the accusations, but rather 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling illiterate followers of Muhammad, that at least had the good sense to abandon Muhammad and his phony cult after he told that big fat lie! What's your excuse Muj!

Katib al Wackidi, "Upon hearing this many became renegades who had prayed and joined Islam." The Sira says: Ishaq:183 "Many Muslims gave up their faith. Some went to Abu Bakr and said, 'What do you think of your friend now? He alleges that he went to Jerusalem last night and prayed there and came back to Mecca.' Bakr said that they were lying about the Apostle. But they told him that he was in the mosque at this very moment telling the Quraysh about it. Bakr said, 'If he says so then it must be true. I believe him. And that is more extraordinary than his story at which you boggle.' Then Allah sent down a Qur'an surah concerning those who left Islam for this reason: 'We made the vision which we showed you only, a test for men. We put them in fear, but it only adds to their heinous error.'" [Qur'an 13:33] Once again, Muhammad flips out and it's everyone's fault but his own. And while it's not surprising anymore, the 13th surah was handed down in Medina, not Mecca.

PeteWaldo

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Re: Re: Questions for Imams Regarding Islamic Tradition
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2014, 01:06:22 PM »
YOU SAID HOW COULD THE FLYING MULE DONKEY GO TO MASJIDUL AQSA WHEN IT WASNT BUIT YET????

The answer is obviously, it couldn't have, because as you say and as the historical record informs, it wasn't built yet.
I offer links so you can educate yourself Muj.
http://www.brotherpete.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm

What Satan's messenger said is:
Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0309: It is narrated on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I was brought al-Buraq Who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place his hoof a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets. I entered the mosque and prayed two rak'ahs in it.....

WELL HOW DID THE PROPHET KNOW THAT IT WOULD BE BUILT?? HOW DID HE KNOW WHERE???

So you freely admit that it hadn't been built yet.
This means that you cannot deny that Muhammad lied about entering the mosque and praying in it.

Perhaps your having admitted that Muhammad was a liar could start your journey to recovery!

"I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets."

So tell us Muj, what "prophets" used the ring on the Islamic mosque, that wasn't even built unti long after Muhammad lied about praying in it? Wasn't built until long after Muhammad's corpse was rotting in its grave.

Mujaheed

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Re: Re: Questions for Imams Regarding Islamic Tradition
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2014, 12:03:41 PM »
YOU SAID HOW COULD THE FLYING MULE DONKEY GO TO MASJIDUL AQSA WHEN IT WASNT BUIT YET????

The answer is obviously, it couldn't have, because as you say and as the historical record informs, it wasn't built yet.
I offer links so you can educate yourself Muj.
http://www.brotherpete.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm

What Satan's messenger said is:
Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0309: It is narrated on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I was brought al-Buraq Who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place his hoof a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets. I entered the mosque and prayed two rak'ahs in it.....

WELL HOW DID THE PROPHET KNOW THAT IT WOULD BE BUILT?? HOW DID HE KNOW WHERE???

So you freely admit that it hadn't been built yet.
This means that you cannot deny that Muhammad lied about entering the mosque and praying in it.

Perhaps your having admitted that Muhammad was a liar could start your journey to recovery!

"I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets."

So tell us Muj, what "prophets" used the ring on the Islamic mosque, that wasn't even built unti long after Muhammad lied about praying in it? Wasn't built until long after Muhammad's corpse was rotting in its grave.

HOW DID MUHAMMAD KNOW OF THE MOSQUE IN HIS TIME?????

YOU PROVING THAT MUAHAMMAD IS TRUE PROPHET OF GOD BY  YOUR VERY STATEMENT THAT YOU MAKING!!!!!

IF YOU HAVE DIFFICULTY IN FOLLOWING THE LOGIC LET ME EXPLAIN IT TO YOU SLOWLY.

MASJIDUL AQSA IS EXACTLY WHERE THE NABI MUHAMMAD SAID IT WOULD BE, IT WAS A HOUSE OF WORSHIP FOR THE PROPHETS< KNOWLEDGE COULD ONLY HAVE BEEN IMPARTED TO THE PROPHET OF THE EXISTENCE (OR FUTURE EXISTENCE) OF THE STRUCTURE IF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD IS A PROPHET OF GOD>

THE PROPHET PRAYED IN MASJIDUL AQSA< THE PLACE WAS CHOSEN LONG V+BEFORE IT WAS BUILT BY GOD AS A PLACE OF WORSHIP>

SO YOUR OBJECTION ONLY SERVERS TO HIGHLIGHT THE FACTS OF THE MI'RAAJ AND THEREBY PROVE AUTHENTICITY.

HOW COULD THE PROPHET KNOW THE LOCATION CENTURIES BEFORE IT HAPPENED?

THANK YOU.

PeteWaldo

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Re: Re: Questions for Imams Regarding Islamic Tradition
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2014, 01:55:14 PM »
YOU SAID HOW COULD THE FLYING MULE DONKEY GO TO MASJIDUL AQSA WHEN IT WASNT BUIT YET????

The answer is obviously, it couldn't have, because as you say and as the historical record informs, it wasn't built yet.
I offer links so you can educate yourself Muj.
http://www.brotherpete.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm

What Satan's messenger said is:
Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0309: It is narrated on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I was brought al-Buraq Who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place his hoof a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets. I entered the mosque and prayed two rak'ahs in it.....

WELL HOW DID THE PROPHET KNOW THAT IT WOULD BE BUILT?? HOW DID HE KNOW WHERE???

So you freely admit that it hadn't been built yet.
This means that you cannot deny that Muhammad lied about entering the mosque and praying in it.

Perhaps your having admitted that Muhammad was a liar could start your journey to recovery!

"I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets."

So tell us Muj, what "prophets" used the ring on the Islamic mosque, that wasn't even built unti long after Muhammad lied about praying in it? Wasn't built until long after Muhammad's corpse was rotting in its grave.

HOW DID MUHAMMAD KNOW OF THE MOSQUE IN HIS TIME?????

He didn't. As you admit the mosque did not exist. So Muhammad told a bold faced lie of having gone into it and prayed.

Muhammad's lie was always attributed to his having visited the temple that Yahweh had His people build in Jerusalem on the temple mount, until modern times when even Muslims had to admit his lie was transparent. That's why he made reference to the ring the prophets used.
So Muhammad's modern day liars tried to pretend that it was about the mosque on the temple mount, rather than the temple of the Jews, without realizing they were creating yet another transparent lie in an effort to cover Muhammad's transparent lie.

Even you believe that there were no prophets related to the mosque - unless you are going to claim you believe in prophets that came after Muhammad.

Muhammad's modern day follower were, and remain, in such abject ignorance to history, they jumped into the buffoonery of pretending it was about the Islamic mosque. Just like you are doing with the modern day guy who is trying to rewrite Islamic history by pointing out that your books are lies.

YOU PROVING THAT MUAHAMMAD IS TRUE PROPHET OF GOD BY  YOUR VERY STATEMENT THAT YOU MAKING!!!!!

Not at all. I proved from top to bottom, inside and out, that his ridiculous fabrication is nothing but sheer buffoonery, that also unequivocally exposes Muhammad as the bold faced liar that he was.

IF YOU HAVE DIFFICULTY IN FOLLOWING THE LOGIC LET ME EXPLAIN IT TO YOU SLOWLY.

MASJIDUL AQSA IS EXACTLY WHERE THE NABI MUHAMMAD SAID IT WOULD BE, IT WAS A HOUSE OF WORSHIP FOR THE PROPHETS< KNOWLEDGE COULD ONLY HAVE BEEN IMPARTED TO THE PROPHET OF THE EXISTENCE (OR FUTURE EXISTENCE) OF THE STRUCTURE IF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD IS A PROPHET OF GOD>

THE PROPHET PRAYED IN MASJIDUL AQSA< THE PLACE WAS CHOSEN LONG V+BEFORE IT WAS BUILT BY GOD AS A PLACE OF WORSHIP>

SO YOUR OBJECTION ONLY SERVERS TO HIGHLIGHT THE FACTS OF THE MI'RAAJ AND THEREBY PROVE AUTHENTICITY.

HOW COULD THE PROPHET KNOW THE LOCATION CENTURIES BEFORE IT HAPPENED?

THANK YOU.

The historical record informs us that in 70 AD the Romans destroyed Herod's temple and every stone of it was thrown down, just as Jesus prophesied.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#matt_24_1

"The Romans threw over every stone, just as Jesus prophesied because when the temple burned, the roof of the temple was overlaid with a thin sheet of gold and the molten gold ran down in the cracks between the stones of the temple and this molten gold was discovered and it gave rise to the rumor that the Jews had used gold as paving between the stones of the temple.  The Roman legionnaires overthrew every stone of the temple looking for gold."
https://www.google.com/#q=romans+threw+down+every+stone+gold

The historical record informs us that in 639, when Jerusalem was conquered by Muslims, the temple mount was in service as a garbage dump.
In 639 Muhammad was already dead and rotting in his grave.

The mosque wasn't completed until 705 AD.
So exactly which prophets are you suggesting, used the ring that Muhammad lied about using?
That is when he lied about having prayed in a non-existent building.

PeteWaldo

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Re: Re: Questions for Imams Regarding Islamic Tradition
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2014, 10:07:33 AM »
From now on every post in which you fail to use the quote function properly, I am going to move to spam.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=3298.msg16260#msg16260

I am sick and tired of having to spend my time straightening them out.  Improperly quoting goofs up every post and poster that follows.
You ought to be ashamed of yourself for not having learned it after all this time and over 400 posts. You know which thread to practice on. Please test until you master MULTIPLE post interruption quoting.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=39.0

Before you post hit the PREVIEW button. If it isn't exactly right, DON'T POST IT.

PeteWaldo

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Re: MOHAMMED'S NIGHT JOURNEY
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2014, 02:20:17 AM »
Your quoting failure post went to your spam, where you can copy and paste from it, for your next attempt. You didn't preview before you posted.

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Re: MOHAMMED'S NIGHT JOURNEY
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2014, 03:27:36 AM »
He certainly is persistent, isn't he?   :P

Excellent article. Well done, Pete!

PeteWaldo

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Re: MOHAMMED'S NIGHT JOURNEY
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2014, 10:12:43 AM »
He certainly is persistent, isn't he?   :P

Excellent article. Well done, Pete!

Here's a much better and more detailed analysis, as to how Islam incriminates itself, through this flying donkey-mule nonsense:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/nightjourney.htm

Bistabuster

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Re: Re: Questions for Imams Regarding Islamic Tradition
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2014, 08:57:40 PM »
MASJIDUL AQSA IS EXACTLY WHERE THE NABI MUHAMMAD SAID IT WOULD BE, IT WAS A HOUSE OF WORSHIP FOR THE PROPHETS< KNOWLEDGE COULD ONLY HAVE BEEN IMPARTED TO THE PROPHET OF THE EXISTENCE (OR FUTURE EXISTENCE) OF THE STRUCTURE IF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD IS A PROPHET OF GOD>

THE PROPHET PRAYED IN MASJIDUL AQSA< THE PLACE WAS CHOSEN LONG V+BEFORE IT WAS BUILT BY GOD AS A PLACE OF WORSHIP>
So, do you just simply ignore the little part that says that this was not a dream or a vision, instead it was occurring right then during Muhammad's lifetime as the reference states? 

"I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets."

So tell us Muj, what "prophets" used the ring on the Islamic mosque, that wasn't even built until long after Muhammad lied about praying in it? Wasn't built until long after Muhammad's corpse was rotting in its grave.
How come you can't answer this question?  It seems to me that you can no longer read a passage, listen to what it says without putting in your two cents worth as to what you WANT it to say thus creating the problem, for you, that you are unable to see what you read DOESN'T mean what you thought it said.  In fact, you leave a lot of important details out of it such as this segment.

So Mohammed flew on al-Buraq to the temple in Jerusalem, tied it up to a ring "the prophets" had used in the past, and went on in to the Temple to pray. Because of the fantastic nature of Mohammed's claims, some 21st century Muslims try to suggest that this was a vision or dream, but according to perhaps the most highly regarded historian of Islam:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 228:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The sights which Allah's Apostle was shown on the Night Journey when he was taken to Bait-ul-Maqdis (i.e. Jerusalem) were actual sights, (not dreams). And the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Quran is the tree of Zaqqum (itself).

Additionally, the rock enshrined in the Dome of the Rock on the temple mount, is supposed to be where Mohammed and Baraq launched from, for the leg of the trip to heaven. So it would be untenable to suggest that Mohammed's journey was a dream or vision, while at the same time claiming that he launched from a very much physical and tangible rock, on the temple mount.

Doubtless there were many skeptics when Mohammed recounted the details of his trip the morning after his night journey on the flying animal. As Dr. Rafat Amari points out in the introduction to "Islam: In Light of History", Abu Bakar (the first assistant of Mohammed who became his first Caliph) confirmed Mohammed's descriptions of the temple he had visited, because Abu Baker claimed he had once taken a journey to Jerusalem and had seen the temple himself, and remembered it to be just as Mohammed had described it.
So, if this was real time, as your own writings states and it came through Muhammad's own lips of which he stated that he was there, right then, then, tell me.  What temple was that?  There is no other way to read it Muj!  Read what your own passage says.  It says HE WAS THERE!!  I could understand you twisting our Bible out of context, but to twist your Quran and other resources out of context too?  Come on Muj.  You know better.  Then again.  The only way any Muslim can make the Quran and all other documents fit is to either lie about history stating that such events never happened when in fact they did or vise versa.  Twisting the meaning is another cool thing Muslim do.  Or how about this.  Telling non Muslims half truths!  Now, that's my favorite! :o 8)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 09:02:10 PM by Bistabuster »

Mujaheed

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Re: Re: Questions for Imams Regarding Islamic Tradition
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2014, 05:07:22 PM »
MASJIDUL AQSA IS EXACTLY WHERE THE NABI MUHAMMAD SAID IT WOULD BE, IT WAS A HOUSE OF WORSHIP FOR THE PROPHETS< KNOWLEDGE COULD ONLY HAVE BEEN IMPARTED TO THE PROPHET OF THE EXISTENCE (OR FUTURE EXISTENCE) OF THE STRUCTURE IF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD IS A PROPHET OF GOD>

THE PROPHET PRAYED IN MASJIDUL AQSA< THE PLACE WAS CHOSEN LONG V+BEFORE IT WAS BUILT BY GOD AS A PLACE OF WORSHIP>
So, do you just simply ignore the little part that says that this was not a dream or a vision, instead it was occurring right then during Muhammad's lifetime as the reference states? 

"I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets."

So tell us Muj, what "prophets" used the ring on the Islamic mosque, that wasn't even built until long after Muhammad lied about praying in it? Wasn't built until long after Muhammad's corpse was rotting in its grave.
How come you can't answer this question?  It seems to me that you can no longer read a passage, listen to what it says without putting in your two cents worth as to what you WANT it to say thus creating the problem, for you, that you are unable to see what you read DOESN'T mean what you thought it said.  In fact, you leave a lot of important details out of it such as this segment.

So Mohammed flew on al-Buraq to the temple in Jerusalem, tied it up to a ring "the prophets" had used in the past, and went on in to the Temple to pray. Because of the fantastic nature of Mohammed's claims, some 21st century Muslims try to suggest that this was a vision or dream, but according to perhaps the most highly regarded historian of Islam:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 228:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The sights which Allah's Apostle was shown on the Night Journey when he was taken to Bait-ul-Maqdis (i.e. Jerusalem) were actual sights, (not dreams). And the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Quran is the tree of Zaqqum (itself).

Additionally, the rock enshrined in the Dome of the Rock on the temple mount, is supposed to be where Mohammed and Baraq launched from, for the leg of the trip to heaven. So it would be untenable to suggest that Mohammed's journey was a dream or vision, while at the same time claiming that he launched from a very much physical and tangible rock, on the temple mount.

Doubtless there were many skeptics when Mohammed recounted the details of his trip the morning after his night journey on the flying animal. As Dr. Rafat Amari points out in the introduction to "Islam: In Light of History", Abu Bakar (the first assistant of Mohammed who became his first Caliph) confirmed Mohammed's descriptions of the temple he had visited, because Abu Baker claimed he had once taken a journey to Jerusalem and had seen the temple himself, and remembered it to be just as Mohammed had described it.
So, if this was real time, as your own writings states and it came through Muhammad's own lips of which he stated that he was there, right then, then, tell me.  What temple was that?  There is no other way to read it Muj!  Read what your own passage says.  It says HE WAS THERE!!  I could understand you twisting our Bible out of context, but to twist your Quran and other resources out of context too?  Come on Muj.  You know better.  Then again.  The only way any Muslim can make the Quran and all other documents fit is to either lie about history stating that such events never happened when in fact they did or vise versa.  Twisting the meaning is another cool thing Muslim do.  Or how about this.  Telling non Muslims half truths!  Now, that's my favorite! :o 8)

It is clear that you believe lies over the words of prophets, you obviously have a problem with following simple logic as far as it is presented to you clearly and plainly, I am very sure that the Jews and Christians would turn the holiest of sites (a temple into a rubbish dump!!!!)  Now the logic and the Archeological (made up conjecture) that you follow is not even remotely Logical. Firstly because I am sure jews and Christian in the 6th century had no use for Temples and holy sites????? Especially Temples!!!

Is it absurd to accept that there was a temple in Jerusalem when the Prophet went there to launch his journey on the Buraq to the court of God?? You questioning semantics, another trait of disbelievers!!! Need I remind of the story of Moses that asked for a sacrifice and the Jews questioned him relentless wit regard to the type, weight, age size and gender. Another story comes to mind when you present irrelevant questions regarding the Prophet Missing the main point of ( I am saying that your Questions are irrelevant because you cannot understand the first command that The Lord Your God is one. SO YOU FLOGGING A DEAD HORSE SO TO SPEAK AND ITS BENEATH ME AND THE DIGINITY OF THE PROPHETS TO SEEK PROOF OF GOD AND THE WAY GOD WORKS AND HIS REVELATION.

IT IS BEYOND YOUR LIMITED UNDERSTANDING. AND NO I AM NOT AVOIDING THE POINT YOU TRYING TO MAKE.

ExMilitary

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Re: Re: Questions for Imams Regarding Islamic Tradition
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2014, 05:54:48 PM »
AND NO I AM NOT AVOIDING THE POINT YOU TRYING TO MAKE.

1.21 JIGAWATTS!!!

Mujaheed

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Re: Re: Questions for Imams Regarding Islamic Tradition
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2014, 06:14:46 PM »
AND NO I AM NOT AVOIDING THE POINT YOU TRYING TO MAKE.

1.21 JIGAWATTS!!!

The argument is exactly like the all the suppositions, conjecture and Archelogical conclusions (conjecture based on assumptions you present) ALL of them from unknown Authors.

ExMilitary

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Re: Re: Questions for Imams Regarding Islamic Tradition
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2014, 08:28:29 PM »
AND NO I AM NOT AVOIDING THE POINT YOU TRYING TO MAKE.

1.21 JIGAWATTS!!!

The argument is exactly like the all the suppositions, conjecture and Archelogical conclusions (conjecture based on assumptions you present) ALL of them from unknown Authors.

The whole story has a Dr. Emmett Brown sort of feel to it..., "Quick, Marty!  To the Delorian!"

Mujaheed

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Re: Re: Questions for Imams Regarding Islamic Tradition
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2014, 08:25:43 AM »
AND NO I AM NOT AVOIDING THE POINT YOU TRYING TO MAKE.

1.21 JIGAWATTS!!!

The argument is exactly like the all the suppositions, conjecture and Archelogical conclusions (conjecture based on assumptions you present) ALL of them from unknown Authors.

The whole story has a Dr. Emmett Brown sort of feel to it..., "Quick, Marty!  To the Delorian!"

YEP WE UNDERSTAND YOUR DELUSIONAL STATE OF MIND: YOU ARE A NATION OF PLAY BASED ON TALE or rather the best at creating illusions (deceiving others) are you not???

PeteWaldo

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Re: Re: Questions for Imams Regarding Islamic Tradition
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2014, 08:45:11 AM »
MASJIDUL AQSA IS EXACTLY WHERE THE NABI MUHAMMAD SAID IT WOULD BE, IT WAS A HOUSE OF WORSHIP FOR THE PROPHETS< KNOWLEDGE COULD ONLY HAVE BEEN IMPARTED TO THE PROPHET OF THE EXISTENCE (OR FUTURE EXISTENCE) OF THE STRUCTURE IF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD IS A PROPHET OF GOD>

THE PROPHET PRAYED IN MASJIDUL AQSA< THE PLACE WAS CHOSEN LONG V+BEFORE IT WAS BUILT BY GOD AS A PLACE OF WORSHIP>
So, do you just simply ignore the little part that says that this was not a dream or a vision, instead it was occurring right then during Muhammad's lifetime as the reference states? 

"I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets."

So tell us Muj, what "prophets" used the ring on the Islamic mosque, that wasn't even built until long after Muhammad lied about praying in it? Wasn't built until long after Muhammad's corpse was rotting in its grave.
How come you can't answer this question?  It seems to me that you can no longer read a passage, listen to what it says without putting in your two cents worth as to what you WANT it to say thus creating the problem, for you, that you are unable to see what you read DOESN'T mean what you thought it said.  In fact, you leave a lot of important details out of it such as this segment.

So Mohammed flew on al-Buraq to the temple in Jerusalem, tied it up to a ring "the prophets" had used in the past, and went on in to the Temple to pray. Because of the fantastic nature of Mohammed's claims, some 21st century Muslims try to suggest that this was a vision or dream, but according to perhaps the most highly regarded historian of Islam:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 228:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The sights which Allah's Apostle was shown on the Night Journey when he was taken to Bait-ul-Maqdis (i.e. Jerusalem) were actual sights, (not dreams). And the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Quran is the tree of Zaqqum (itself).

Additionally, the rock enshrined in the Dome of the Rock on the temple mount, is supposed to be where Mohammed and Baraq launched from, for the leg of the trip to heaven. So it would be untenable to suggest that Mohammed's journey was a dream or vision, while at the same time claiming that he launched from a very much physical and tangible rock, on the temple mount.

Doubtless there were many skeptics when Mohammed recounted the details of his trip the morning after his night journey on the flying animal. As Dr. Rafat Amari points out in the introduction to "Islam: In Light of History", Abu Bakar (the first assistant of Mohammed who became his first Caliph) confirmed Mohammed's descriptions of the temple he had visited, because Abu Baker claimed he had once taken a journey to Jerusalem and had seen the temple himself, and remembered it to be just as Mohammed had described it.
So, if this was real time, as your own writings states and it came through Muhammad's own lips of which he stated that he was there, right then, then, tell me.  What temple was that?  There is no other way to read it Muj!  Read what your own passage says.  It says HE WAS THERE!!  I could understand you twisting our Bible out of context, but to twist your Quran and other resources out of context too?  Come on Muj.  You know better.  Then again.  The only way any Muslim can make the Quran and all other documents fit is to either lie about history stating that such events never happened when in fact they did or vise versa.  Twisting the meaning is another cool thing Muslim do.  Or how about this.  Telling non Muslims half truths!  Now, that's my favorite! :o 8)

It is clear that you believe lies over the words of prophets, ........

There were no prophets that could have had anything to do with the Islamic mosque that was built on the temple mount long after Muhammad was dead. Your capacity for critical thinking has vanished Muj.

....... you obviously have a problem with following simple logic as far as it is presented to you clearly and plainly, I am very sure that the Jews and Christians would turn the holiest of sites (a temple into a rubbish dump!!!!)  Now the logic and the Archeological (made up conjecture) that you follow is not even remotely Logical. Firstly because I am sure jews and Christian in the 6th century had no use for Temples and holy sites????? Especially Temples!!!

Ever since Jesus built our temple in three days, just as He prophesied He could, His people have been His temple.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.  20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm

Herod's temple was thrown down every stone in 70 AD, just as Jesus had prophesied:

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#matt_24_1

Is it absurd to accept that there was a temple in Jerusalem when the Prophet went there to launch his journey on the Buraq to the court of God?? You questioning semantics, another trait of disbelievers!!! Need I remind of the story of Moses that asked for a sacrifice and the Jews questioned him relentless wit regard to the type, weight, age size and gender. Another story comes to mind when you present irrelevant questions regarding the Prophet Missing the main point of ( I am saying that your Questions are irrelevant because you cannot understand the first command that The Lord Your God is one. SO YOU FLOGGING A DEAD HORSE SO TO SPEAK AND ITS BENEATH ME AND THE DIGINITY OF THE PROPHETS TO SEEK PROOF OF GOD AND THE WAY GOD WORKS AND HIS REVELATION.

IT IS BEYOND YOUR LIMITED UNDERSTANDING. AND NO I AM NOT AVOIDING THE POINT YOU TRYING TO MAKE.

Then what prophets used the ring on the Al-Aqsa Mosque that wasn't built until 690 AD?

Bistabuster

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Re: Re: Questions for Imams Regarding Islamic Tradition
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2014, 02:08:42 AM »
It is clear that you believe lies over the words of prophets, you obviously have a problem with following simple logic as far as it is presented to you clearly and plainly, I am very sure that the Jews and Christians would turn the holiest of sites (a temple into a rubbish dump!!!!)  Now the logic and the Archeological (made up conjecture) that you follow is not even remotely Logical. Firstly because I am sure jews and Christian in the 6th century had no use for Temples and holy sites????? Especially Temples!!!
Two part answer.  Yes, I do believe Muhammad, your ONLY prophet was a self proclaiming fool LIAR!!  Muhammad was in it for himself.  Not you and not me.  He could give a rats a$$ about anybody.  As much as you can't (and won't) understand, Jesus loves EVERYBODY, including you.  All he (Jesus) asks is that you come to him willingly of which you won't do.  You would rather worship a self serving bigot who would kill you in a heartbeat without a second thought, Muhammad.  More power to you, bud.

So, our conjecture that you plainly don't get probably because you're so engrossed in false Islamic teachings, you wouldn't even believe that you were born only if an Islamist told you so.  If a Christian said so, then all lies.

History lesson for you, Muj. The Jews NEVER destroyed their temple.  The Romans did in 70 AD!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%2870%29
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/jewishtemple.htm
http://www.bible.ca/pre-flavius-josephus-70AD-Mt24-fulfilled.htm

Facts are facts, Muj, even as much as you wish not to accept them.  Since the original temple was destroyed in 70 AD (much to your disliking), and the next temple that was built in 688-691 AD where Muhammad was born around 572 AD and definitely died in 632 AD, which temple could both Muhammad have seen that was CLEARLY backed up by Abu Bakr as he (Abu) has personally stated that he was there and confirmed what Muhammad said he saw when there was no temple of ANY KIND WHATSOEVER in Jerusalem?

The only plausible answer to this mystery is that these two people fabricated up the story or Abu lied to the tribe and agreed to whatever Muhammad said so that Muhammad would be justified.  Only, if only, the people of that time would have taken a journey to confirm what Muhammad and Abu Bakr said were true by physically verifying what temple was really built in Jerusalem, but they didn't.  If they had, Muhammad would have been identified as a fraud, right then and Islam would have died off but instead they believed in Muhammad without checking him out.

Oh, Muj, Muj, Muj.  Those Islamic teachers of yours will tell you just about anything and you will believe them without checking things out just to see if they're really telling you the real facts.  If them Islamist's tell you there was no holocaust of the Jews, you would believe them despite the factual pictures and testimonies of hundreds of witnesses.

Sad, very sad that you would believe ONE MAN, Muhammad, for that is all Islam has to offer you.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 02:13:49 AM by Bistabuster »

Mujaheed

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Re: Re: Questions for Imams Regarding Islamic Tradition
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2014, 11:49:04 AM »
It is clear that you believe lies over the words of prophets, you obviously have a problem with following simple logic as far as it is presented to you clearly and plainly, I am very sure that the Jews and Christians would turn the holiest of sites (a temple into a rubbish dump!!!!)  Now the logic and the Archeological (made up conjecture) that you follow is not even remotely Logical. Firstly because I am sure jews and Christian in the 6th century had no use for Temples and holy sites????? Especially Temples!!!
Two part answer.  Yes, I do believe Muhammad, your ONLY prophet was a self proclaiming fool LIAR!!  Muhammad was in it for himself.  Not you and not me.  He could give a rats a$$ about anybody.  As much as you can't (and won't) understand, Jesus loves EVERYBODY, including you.  All he (Jesus) asks is that you come to him willingly of which you won't do.  You would rather worship a self serving bigot who would kill you in a heartbeat without a second thought, Muhammad.  More power to you, bud.

So, our conjecture that you plainly don't get probably because you're so engrossed in false Islamic teachings, you wouldn't even believe that you were born only if an Islamist told you so.  If a Christian said so, then all lies.
Islamist you a Chrsitianists and worse of all a very absurd Christianists that follows conjecture and lies and the media. The us of the term "Islamist" is an indication of your indoctrination. It is absurd to make up a word like Islamist!!!! Capitalist and Zionist and now Islamist??? These are absurdities that very few actually understand as it is used to misguide ignoramuses like you


History lesson for you, Muj. The Jews NEVER destroyed their temple.  The Romans did in 70 AD!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%2870%29
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/jewishtemple.htm
http://www.bible.ca/pre-flavius-josephus-70AD-Mt24-fulfilled.htm

Facts are facts, Muj, even as much as you wish not to accept them.  Since the original temple was destroyed in 70 AD (much to your disliking), and the next temple that was built in 688-691 AD where Muhammad was born around 572 AD and definitely died in 632 AD, which temple could both Muhammad have seen that was CLEARLY backed up by Abu Bakr as he (Abu) has personally stated that he was there and confirmed what Muhammad said he saw when there was no temple of ANY KIND WHATSOEVER in Jerusalem?
YOU MISSING THE POINT OF THE ISRAA The Night Journey is to expose those who have no faith in GOD. The arguments of Where the Temple was/is Irellavent Next I am going to ask you to prove the Crucifiction (no its is Fiction) You have no archeological proof other than an account of one or two unknown Authors..


The only plausible answer to this mystery is that these two people fabricated up the story or Abu lied to the tribe and agreed to whatever Muhammad said so that Muhammad would be justified.  Only, if only, the people of that time would have taken a journey to confirm what Muhammad and Abu Bakr said were true by physically verifying what temple was really built in Jerusalem, but they didn't.  If they had, Muhammad would have been identified as a fraud, right then and Islam would have died off but instead they believed in Muhammad without checking him out.

Oh, Muj, Muj, Muj.  Those Islamic teachers of yours will tell you just about anything and you will believe them without checking things out just to see if they're really telling you the real facts.  If them Islamist's tell you there was no holocaust of the Jews, you would believe them despite the factual pictures and testimonies of hundreds of witnesses.
The proof is in the 5 times daily Prayer. Salaat The most powerful prayer on EARTH most Perfected and distinguishes Muslims from everyone else. DO yourself a favor and google Salaat. Watch Youtube clips on Salaat and see for yourself how it is performed and then follow what is being said in the Salaat. Then Talk to me about the Night Journey.


Sad, very sad that you would believe ONE MAN, Muhammad, for that is all Islam has to offer you.

ExMilitary

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Re: Re: Questions for Imams Regarding Islamic Tradition
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2014, 01:19:34 PM »
...The proof is in the 5 times daily Prayer. Salaat The most powerful prayer on EARTH

Most powerful?  More powerful than prayers of the saints that have resurrected the dead?  More powerful than the prayers of saints that have killed liars like Ananias and Sapphira?  More powerful than those that have brought eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ?  No, of course not... because Salaat ends with:

'Praise to Allah who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness. (Qur’an 17:111)

Purpose of the Salaat - deny the Son.

PeteWaldo

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Re: Re: Questions for Imams Regarding Islamic Tradition
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2014, 02:06:03 PM »
It is clear that you believe lies over the words of prophets, you obviously have a problem with following simple logic as far as it is presented to you clearly and plainly, I am very sure that the Jews and Christians would turn the holiest of sites (a temple into a rubbish dump!!!!)  Now the logic and the Archeological (made up conjecture) that you follow is not even remotely Logical. Firstly because I am sure jews and Christian in the 6th century had no use for Temples and holy sites????? Especially Temples!!!
Two part answer.  Yes, I do believe Muhammad, your ONLY prophet was a self proclaiming fool LIAR!!  Muhammad was in it for himself.  Not you and not me.  He could give a rats a$$ about anybody.  As much as you can't (and won't) understand, Jesus loves EVERYBODY, including you.  All he (Jesus) asks is that you come to him willingly of which you won't do.  You would rather worship a self serving bigot who would kill you in a heartbeat without a second thought, Muhammad.  More power to you, bud.

So, our conjecture that you plainly don't get probably because you're so engrossed in false Islamic teachings, you wouldn't even believe that you were born only if an Islamist told you so.  If a Christian said so, then all lies.
Islamist you a Chrsitianists and worse of all a very absurd Christianists that follows conjecture and lies and the media. The us of the term "Islamist" is an indication of your indoctrination. It is absurd to make up a word like Islamist!!!!

I agree it is a non-productive term Muj. While Bista completely understands that Muhammad's followers are commanded to fight, terrorize and conquer non-Muslims, most of those who use the term "Islamist" use it to describe murderous Islamic terrorists, not realizing because of Islamic taqiyyah and dissimulation, that fighting, slaying, terrorists are Muhammad's TRUE followers.
In other words murderous terrorists are not Islamists, but MUSLIMS, while those followers of Muhammad that don't have the stomach for fighting and terrorizing non-Muslims are HYPOCRITES, according to Muhammad's true followers.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#allah_terror

But your post was, as always, non-responsive. Let alone that the terms of your return were spelled out at this link.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=4086.msg16464#msg16464

I'll give you a couple weeks off to organize some historical and archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca existed prior to the 4th century AD. Also an explanation of the geographical impossibility of Abraham, Hagar or Ishmel ever having been in the place where Mecca was eventually settled in the 4th century AD. New page to help you with that:
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/seed_ishmael_ishmaelites.htm

Pay close attention to ExMil's post, and really think about that the next time you are prostrating toward the Quraysh pagan's black stone idol, and praying in the "vain repetitions as the heathen do".