Author Topic: HISTORY OF MECCA  (Read 3692 times)

Peter

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HISTORY OF MECCA
« on: April 23, 2010, 08:21:16 AM »
(Disappeared, then restored from database on 12-20-14)

Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-PDQFTzNTc

HISTORY OF MECCA

The Kaaba in Mecca, Saudi Arabia, is considered by Muslims to be the most sacred and holy place in the world. It is said to have been built by Adam and became the first structure on earth. It is believed to have been commissioned by "Allah" in the shape of a House in Heaven called Baitul Ma’amoor around which the angels are said to perform Tawaf. The structure incorporates a black stone into one corner that is believed to have been sent down by Allah.

So important is this site in Islam that Muslims from all over the world prostrate themselves toward the Ka'aba when they repeat their prayers to Allah five times a day. Muslims are also required to perform the "Hajj" at least once in their lifetime which includes circumambulation of the Ka'aba. Crowd size permitting, each round is to begin by rubbing, or kissing the black stone as Muhammad did, or at least pointing to the stone on each of the seven circuits one walks around it. Please see the video series "Hajj & Umrah" for details of these rituals. The Kaaba is said to be situated at the center of the world with the gate of heaven located directly above it. According to the Quran, the Ka'aba was re-built by Abraham and Ishmael.



It's interesting to note that in the 7th century AD in which Mohammed lived the Ka'aba was a center of pagan worship of 360 stone idols that resided in and around the Ka'aba. After being exiled to Medina, Mohammed enlisted a couple of bandit tribes there, and eventually conquered Mecca and had all of the stone idols removed ..... except one.

The black stone that Muslims bow toward to this day is believed to be a meteorite, or more likely a glass object, composed of melted sand combined with particles from a metorite. Some glass balls that were created by the Wabar meteorite even float. From Wikipedia:

"Although scientists did not become aware of the Wabar craters until 1932, they were located near a caravan route from Oman and were very likely known to the inhabitants of the desert."

It would seem likely that the immigrants from neighboring Yemen, who settled the bleak and barren desert around Medina and Mecca, brought the black stone with them.

So the question begs, if Allah commissioned the Kaaba to be constructed at the center of the world, and right below the gate to heaven, why then did God give Moses specific instruction to build a tabernacle on Mount Moriah, that was completed almost 3,000 years ago, that stood 766 miles from Mecca?

One of the difficulties with Mohammed's view is that there is no record - outside of Islamic tradition - of Abraham ever having been in Mecca. Please see the "Hagar, Ishmael, Paran & Mecca" video for more. An even greater - indeed insurmountable - difficulty is that there is no historical or archaeological record of Mecca ever having existed, prior to the 4th century AD. While there is plenty of such evidence that confirms that Arabian cities like Qedar, Dedan and Teima were established long before, there is no such evidence that Mecca ever existed before the Christian era.

Based on extensive historical and archaeological evidence presented by Dr. Rafat Amari, that you can access at the links provided below this video, it seems Mecca was built around the 4th century A.D., by the Yemeni tribe of Khuzaa'h. The Kaaba was apparently constructed by Asa’d Abu Karb in the early 5th century A.D. It is said that prior to the construction of the Kaabah, a tent existed on the spot where it was built.

Geographers and historians from antiquity note even small Arabian settlements before the Christian era that came and went within a few centuries, and while the historical accounts about, and artifacts from ancient settlements, confirm the existence of each other, there is no reference to Mecca or it's Kaaba to be found. This even though it was eventually built on one of the most established trading routes in Arabia, about which historical record abounds, and in spite of the Muslim claims that Mecca was the epicenter of the Islamic faith for thousands of years before Mohammed. If this had been the case Mecca would certainly have been one of the most written about Arabian places by those early geographers and historians.

There are references to lots of other temples and even to a great temple "highly revered by all the Arabs”. This may be reference to a temple near Ilat in the northern end of the Gulf of Aqaba, or to one of the many other kaabas devoted to Arabian Star family worship, as also discussed in the "What Do The Oldest Mosques Point to" video. Even Mohammed's own tribe the Quraish went on Hajj, or pilgrimage, to a holy place to the north long after the Kaaba in Mecca was built. Indeed they went on summer and winter pilgrimages, indicating that the Kaaba in Mecca was a less significant place of worship.

Quoting Dr. Amari, "The stone was considered the main shrine, or sacred element, in each temple, called Kaabah in Arabic. This revered stone, which represented the moon, was considered to be divine. The worship of the Arabian Star Family with Allah, who was the moon as its head, revolved around the black stone. Ellat, Allah’s wife, was the sun, and al-'Uzza and Manat, his daughters, represented two planets."

There was no shortage of Kaabas in Arabia each with it's own host of stone idols. Pagan Arabic religious temple design left its indelible fingerprints on these temples as well as on the Kaaba in Mecca demonstrating that Abraham could not have built it even if the city of Mecca had preceded the 4th century AD.

Try a search like - archaeology of mecca - or - historical and archaeological evidence of mecca. If you can find some evidence that predates the first few centuries AD, that demonstrates that Mecca existed prior to the Christian era, we would appreciate you sharing it with us in the forum. In the absence of such archaeological and historical record, what can be concluded about Mohammed's 7th century religion?

If Mecca has been the epicenter of Islam since the time of Abraham, it would follow that there would be increasingly more archaeological evidence in the form of artifacts and such, the closer one traveled to this epicenter of Mohammed's religion. Where are all the mosques that predated Mohammed? It also follows that there should be a greater pre-Christian historical record for Mecca, than perhaps most any other Arabian city, but no such record exists. Compare this to Jerusalem, for example, the epicenter of Judeo/Christian beliefs. One can hardly pick up a shovel full of earth that doesn't contain artifacts, and the closer one gets to Jerusalem, the more concentrated and abundant such artifacts become. Indeed there are over one million artifacts, just on display.

It is also interesting to note that the name "Makka", mentioned in Quran surah 48:24, and again in 33:50 (but in parantheses), is by some suggested to be transformed into the name "Bakka", that is found in Surah 3:96, perhaps somehow changing over the brief 23 years of Mohammed's "revelations". Even if this were the case, Islam's holiest city - it's most important geographical location since Adam - would then only be mentioned three times in the Quran. Compare this with the name "Jerusalem", which is mentioned 814 times in 767 verses, in the Word or God.

Suggestion that Mecca is mentioned in the Old Testament as the Hebrew name "Baca" is accomplished by removing the following verse from context and suggesting a similarity with the Arabic name "Bakka", from the Quran.

Psalms 84:6 [Who] passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.

But the most obvious difficulty with this claim is the very next verse:

84:7 They go from strength to strength, [every one of them] in Zion appeareth before God.

Zion is mentioned 153 times in God's Word because it is the name of the easternmost hill of ancient Jerusalem. Thus we see this passage describing a journey to ZION - to Jerusalem - to the Holy Land. Baca simply being a stop along the way.

In conclusion, in the absence of archaeological or historical record, any pre 4th century A.D. Mecca or Kaaba, would seem nothing more than a desert mirage. There is, however, abundant historical record, of men venerating meteorites and other forms of stone idols, throughout history.

Please visit the first link below this video for comments and discussion in the Islam-Christian Forum.
The second link for the text version.
The third link for a forum section on the History of Islam.
The fourth link for Dr. Rafat Amari's website.
The rest of the links to some of Dr. Amari's papers.

Please visit brotherpete.com

Peter

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nali on Islamic rituals
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2010, 03:55:48 PM »
nali on bashing Chrisianity while failing to paint Islamic pagan rituals as other than exactly that.
nali in [[[[   ]]]]] also as himself as "ME" and pete as "YOU" in the below

So all the "proof" of a pre-Mohammed Islamic history of Mecca that you brought is

1. A U-Tube that puts odds at somewhere between "maybe" and "probably" on Noah's arc (so we don't need to explore that further at this time)

2. A misunderstanding of Psalms 84:6 which in the very next verse indicates that the temple to which it refers is in ZION.

3. In answer to the 1200 mile commute of Abraham and Ishmael, between Hebron and where Mecca was eventually built, you brought up what you believe to be a historical event of

[[[God allowed fighters in persia to make it to mecca in one day's travel and back to persia behind the army they left marching and these were not prophets of god, so why can god not do the same for his messengers to allow their journey to be shortened?]]]

But I can't find out anything about this alleged historical event no matter how I Google it.
Where is it recorded?


Is that all the "proof" you have of a pre-Christian era Mecca? Did you do the Google searches I suggested?

Like - archaeological record confirms abraham bible

Next - archaeological historical record Jerusalem
Next - archaeological historical record Mecca

Try this Wikipedia article
Ancient Towns in Saudi Arabia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia
_________________

[[[[And yes my prophet was illeterate, and he produced a book that is unmatched by the most litereate of them all, that shows how blessed he was that god gave him what he gave no other. Alhamdu lillah I am a muslim and I subit my will to the will of the one who created my soul]]]]

You seem to think that because Mohammed was too mentally challenged to learn how to read, that it means he was also deaf. But Mohammed's heavily abrogated mass of confusion of borrowed fables, preposterously false history, and poorly repeated scraps of Judeo/Chrisitanity that he received from Jabr, Tubba and tri-lingual Jewish secretary, as well as wives and concubines that had some exposure to Christianity and Judaism is a joke.
Indeed so often did Mohammed get a "revelation" soon after visiting with his X-"Christian" friend Jabr, that the local nickname for Jabr among the Quraish became "holy spirit".

Let me ask you question that you need to seriously seek an answer to.

What part of the Hajj and Umrah that Muslims engage in today, is not identical to the very same way the Arabian pagans performed these rituals, before Mohammed was ever born?
______________________

I have answered all of your questions multiple times, now i ask you very simply answer my question.

PROOVE YOUR RELIGION WITHOUT PROOVING HINDUISM TO ME.


i have asked you this multiple times and you are yet to respond, if you did respond in your last round of emails let me know and i will read them to find the proof of yours, if not i will not open the emails you sent so that i dont loose track of unresponded emails to you.

proove to me taht your relgiion is not simply hinduism. when you boil it down.
______________________

[[[[[I have answered all of your questions multiple times, now i ask you very simply answer my question.

PROOVE YOUR RELIGION WITHOUT PROOVING HINDUISM TO ME.]]]]

My religion is based on the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind through all of the prophets and witnesses that He chose. Are you suggesting that's what Hinduism is also based on?

[[[[i have asked you this multiple times and you are yet to respond, .......]]]]

That's because your question, in and of itself, makes no sense.
Try reading your own question and see if you can make any sense of it.

[[[[[..... if you did respond in your last round of emails let me know and i will read them to find the proof of yours, if not i will not open the emails you sent so that i dont loose track of unresponded emails to you.]]]]

Which could all have been very well organized in the forum, if you weren't such a coward. Don't blame me for your fear.

[[[[[proove to me taht your relgiion is not simply hinduism. when you boil it down.]]]]]

My religion comes from the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind that His people have followed for 3500 years.
As far as I know Hinduism comes from their own record - not from Scripture.
Since I am relatively unfamiliar with Hinduism, I can only assume that you desire to find a similarity or parallel of some kind. If indeed that is what you so poorly attempted to communicate, then that perception is a produce of your own desires. Simply more of your blasphemy against Yahweh.
Are you saying you deny that Yahshua was born of a virgin?


Now the question that you ran and hid from that addresses THE VERY FOUNDATION of the rituals of Mohammed's 7th century cult.

What part of the Hajj and Umrah that Muslims engage in today, is not performed the very same way that the Arabian pagans performed these rituals, before Mohammed was ever born?
_______________________

I googled - hinduism christianity similarities - to see if this is where you were trying to go, and started with the first site.
http://hinduism.about.com/od/basics/a/christianity.htm
The author demonstrates as much ignorance to Christianity as you nali.

"You may find it surprising that much of Christianity originated from India.]]]]]

Sure. Doesn't everybody know that Yahshua was a hindu from India, and THE Holy Land was India and not Israel? That's what Mohammed taught as well, didn't he nali?

[[[[[ Indeed, over the centuries, numerous historians and sages have pointed out that not only has Hinduism had a predominant influence on Christianity, but that many of the Christian rites could be directly borrowed from Hindu (Vedic) India.]]]]]

What he actually means is that much of Roman Church heresy comes straight out of paganism (as did Constantine), and non-Catholic Christians would almost universally agree with this.

[[[[[French historian Alain Danielou had noticed as early as 1950 that "a great number of events which surround the birth of Christ - as it is related in the Gospels - ]]]]]

Which includes Yahshua's virgin birth which you, nali, seem to have taken to blaspheming against.

[[[[[.....strangely reminded us of Buddha's and Krishna's legends." Danielou quotes as examples the structure of the Christian Church, which resembles that of the Buddhist Chaitya; ........]]]]]

Where is the Christian "Church" - the temple of Yahweh - described as a building, in Scripture?

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that YE ARE the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

[[[[[.......... the rigorous asceticism of certain early Christian sects, which reminds one of the asceticism of Jain and Buddhist saints; ..........]]]]]

Quick Yahoo
"...... "exercise" or "training" in the sense of athletic training) describes a lifestyle characterized by abstinence..."
At least you don't have to be associated with such a pagan thing as abstinence, since you are a Muslim, eigh nali!

[[[[[[......... the veneration of relics, .......]]]]]

Where in the New Testament are Christians called to venerate relics?
Roman Catholics do through their pagan heresies, but you will find no such thing in Scripture.

YET YOU BOW TO THE VERY SAME BLACK STONE IDOL THAT THE PAGANS VENERATED AS THEIR MOON AND LATER STAR GOD IDOL, FIVE TIMES A DAY!!!!!!!!
YOU ARE EVEN COMPELLED TO TRAVEL ALL THE WAY TO SAUDI ARABIA AND MARCH AROUND IT SEVEN TIMES AND KISS IT OR POINT TO IT EACH TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What does the Gospel do other than criticize idolatry?

1Cr 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

[[[[[....... the usage of holy water, .......]]]]]

More Roman Church heresy and bondage, straight out of paganism, and unsupportable through Scripture.

[[[[[[......... which is an Indian practice, and the word "Amen," which comes from the Hindu (Sanskrit) "OM.""]]]]

This guy engages in the same kind of Deedat style stupidity that you parrot, by drawing ridiculous parallels to completely unrelated words, (unrelated in time, culture, geography and language) like your preposterous Baca Mecca nonsense, when the very next verse locates the temple IN ZION.

Amen
Old Testament HEBREW Definition:
0543 'amen {aw-mane'}
from 0539; TWOT - 116b; adverb
AV - amen 27; truly 2, so be it 1; 30
1) verily, truly, amen, SO BE IT

Amen
New Testament Greek Definition:
281 amen {am-ane'}
of Hebrew origin 0543; TDNT - 1:335,53; particle indeclinable
AV - verily 101, amen 51; 152
1) firm
1a) metaph. faithful
2) verily, amen
2a) at the beginning of a discourse - surely, truly, of a
truth
2b) at the end - so it is, SO BE IT, may it be fulfilled. It was a
custom, which passed over from the synagogues to the Christian
assemblies, that when he who had read or discoursed, had
offered up solemn prayer to God, the others responded Amen, and
thus made the substance of what was uttered their own.

Is this what you were alluding to my friend? Are you incapable of embarrassment? You can see that your black stone veneration is far more parallel to Hinduism than to Christianity.
You just wish to pretend that Roman Catholic heresy is Christian, to embellish and further decorate your straw god, of your own creation.

I'll copy and paste this subject into the forum so we can organize our chat related to your question better. Maybe you can answer mine there too.
__________________________

{{{{{{{{[[[[YOU:
Since I am relatively unfamiliar with Hinduism, I can only assume that you desire to find a similarity or parallel of some kind. If indeed that is what you so poorly attempted to communicate, then that perception is a produce of your own desires. Simply more of your blasphemy against Yahweh.
Are you saying you deny that Yahshua was born of a virgin?


ME:
well let me tell you about the religion of my ancestors, that i grew up very close to, they beleive that there is ONE god, who came in MANY forms on the face of the earth to help man, from every aspect, he came as a man, woman, elephant, and anything else you can possibly think of, .....}}}}}}}}}

Well gee. That reads just like the Gospel doesn't it.
______________________

YOU:
I googled - hinduism christianity similarities - to see if this is where you were trying to go, and started with the first site.
http://hinduism.about.com/od/basics/a/christianity.htm
The author demonstrates as much ignorance to Christianity as you nali.

"You may find it surprising that much of Christianity originated from India.]]]]]

Sure. Doesn't everybody know that Yahshua was a hindu from India, and THE Holy Land was India and not Israel? That's what Mohammed taught as well, didn't he nali?

ME:
Has nothing to do with where I am coming from in this discussion, I believe that jesus was a jew so obviously this has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.


YOU:
[[[[[ Indeed, over the centuries, numerous historians and sages have pointed out that not only has Hinduism had a predominant influence on Christianity, but that many of the Christian rites could be directly borrowed from Hindu (Vedic) India.]]]]]

What he actually means is that much of Roman Church heresy comes straight out of paganism (as did Constantine), and non-Catholic Christians would almost universally agree with this.

ME:
Again nothing to do with where I am coming from, but to answer your question it is Catholicism


YOU:
[[[[[French historian Alain Danielou had noticed as early as 1950 that "a great number of events which surround the birth of Christ - as it is related in the Gospels - ]]]]]

Which includes Yahshua's virgin birth which you, nali, seem to have taken to blaspheming against.

ME:
What have I blasphemed about jesus' birth, I clearly believe he was born of a virgin and I clearly believe that is is NOT god.

YOU:
[[[[[.......... the rigorous asceticism of certain early Christian sects, which reminds one of the asceticism of Jain and Buddhist saints; ..........]]]]]

Quick Yahoo
"...... "exercise" or "training" in the sense of athletic training) describes a lifestyle characterized by abstinence..."
At least you don't have to be associated with such a pagan thing as abstinence, since you are a Muslim, eigh nali!
ME:
Again has nothing to do with my question


YOU:

Is this what you were alluding to my friend? Are you incapable of embarrassment? You can see that your black stone veneration is far more parallel to Hinduism than to Christianity.
You just wish to pretend that Roman Catholic heresy is Christian, to embellish and further decorate your straw god, of your own creation.

I'll copy and paste this subject into the forum so we can organize our chat related to your question better. Maybe you can answer mine there too.

ME:
Again I am not talking about anything that someone else told me about, I am talking about from my experience as I grew up with hinduism and christiany and islam I was born a muslim but I have family members who are of these religion and as they are family we are close and I participated in their events, so I learned about their religion.

So now because you claimed my asking the question was vague, answer the question about WHAT IS YOUR CONCEPT OF GOD? And don't forget to include your trinitarian concepts, because clearly that is hiduism's grounds.... Customs etc are such a waste of time, because the thing that we are talking about is GOD.
________________________

YOU:
My religion is based on the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind through all of the prophets and witnesses that He chose. Are you suggesting that's what Hinduism is also based on?

ME:
No i am suggesting YOUR CONCEPT OF GOD is the concept of hinduism, that god comes on earth to deal with man, that is what i am talking about.


YOU:
That's because your question, in and of itself, makes no sense.
Try reading your own question and see if you can make any sense of it.

ME:
My question makes perfect sense to me, if you dont understand say that you dont understand there is no problem with that... my question is your concept of god, because you must admit the only difference in what you believe about god and what i believe about god is the concept of god, so explain to me this concept of god that you beleive in without prooving the relgion of my ancestors, because to me their religion is more consistient than yours. so explain to me how god is divided and not seperate, yet each part of him has a different experience.



YOU:
Which could all have been very well organized in the forum, if you weren't such a coward. Don't blame me for your fear.

ME:
no the reason i stop comming to your forum is that you would send me a book of discussion actually there were like 11 different topics you were discussing at the same time i dont have time for that, it is a waste of my time one topic at a time, even in the emails you started talking about nothing to do with the topics, we are talking about the sonship of adam you are talking about how many muhammad(saw) had sex with his wife what does that have to do with sons of god i have no idea, so no i dont fear you, you can take taht gas and well i think you know what to do with it.


YOU:
My religion comes from the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind that His people have followed for 3500 years.

ME:
show me in the OT where god commands that HE will die for your sins?



YOU:
As far as I know Hinduism comes from their own record - not from Scripture.

ME:
They do have a scripture it is called the VADAs, the Gita and other works are recorded history based on what they remember but the Vada is their actual scripture.



YOU:
Since I am relatively unfamiliar with Hinduism, I can only assume that you desire to find a similarity or parallel of some kind. If indeed that is what you so poorly attempted to communicate, then that perception is a produce of your own desires. Simply more of your blasphemy against Yahweh.
Are you saying you deny that Yahshua was born of a virgin?


ME:
well let me tell you about the religion of my ancestors, that i grew up very close to, they beleive that there is ONE god, who came in MANY forms on the face of the earth to help man, from every aspect, he came as a man, woman, elephant, and anything else you can possibly think of, god came in this form so that he can relate to his creation. Krishna one of the incarnations of god was born out of a virgin according to their scripture but that is the least of my concern with the question i ask you. because you see quite simply you cannot explain that god is one devine being and yet 3 DISTINCT persons without prooving to me taht hinduism is infact a religion that is EXACTLY The same, the only difference would be that you limit the incarnation of god to 1 they say no it is over 333 million incarnations.

and what kind of muslim would deny that jesus is born of a virgin, are you loosing your mind? how can i deny what is written in my quran? only an idiot would expect someone to deny their own faith that they are speaking in high reguards of, so if you think i am an idiot i think you are speaking to the wrong person. and what does that have to do with the conversation of explaining to me your concept of god? absolutly nothing. but this is the tactics of christians, a set of gas and nothing behind it.


YOU:
Now the question that you ran and hid from that addresses THE VERY FOUNDATION of the rituals of Mohammed's 7th century cult.

ME:
I did not run from any of your questions, infact i think i stated clearly that i will not read the other emails until you answer the simple question of what you believe when compared to hinduism because it is almost now a week that i asked this question and you have not yet answered me.


YOU:
What part of the Hajj and Umrah that Muslims engage in today, is not performed the very same way that the Arabian pagans performed these rituals, before Mohammed was ever born?

ME:
very simple after Tawaf we perfrom 2 rakaat salaat to god, never done before by the pagans. but again a waste of time answering you because you are not even eger to know the truth you just hurl accusations and divert the topic, because simply put you cannot proove your concepts of god without prooving the religion of my forefathers. Atleast they are consistient in their belief to them EVERYTHING is god, they understand the verse Adam is OF god better than you ever will
____________________

{{{{{{[[[[YOU:
What part of the Hajj and Umrah that Muslims engage in today, is not performed the very same way that the Arabian pagans performed these rituals, before Mohammed was ever born?

ME:
very simple after Tawaf we perfrom 2 rakaat salaat ......}}}}}}}}}}}

Ah yes, the prayers of the heathen. If you told your own earthly father "Dad you are great!", how much more do you think he would appreciate it the 33rd time you repeated it, than the first time you said it?
By the 33rd time he would likely tell you to shut up, wouldn't he.
That's why we were given instruction to pray without ceasing (describing relationship), and were instructed how NOT TO PRAY as well.

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

You pray in the fashion of the 2nd century occult cult of the Sabians, from whom Mohammed lifted praying 5 times a day and performing ablution. Sorry to break your bubble but he didn't learn it while riding around on a flying donkey-mule.

{{{{{{{{....... to god, never done before by the pagans. but again a waste of time answering you because you are not even eger to know the truth you just hurl accusations and divert the topic, because simply put you cannot proove your concepts of god without prooving the religion of my forefathers. Atleast they are consistient in their belief to them EVERYTHING is god, they understand the verse Adam is OF god better than you ever will}}}}}}}}}

My friend, you know I wasn't asking about the minutia involved, from Mohammed's repackaging of these pagan rituals.
You also arrive by jet rather than camel.
Perhaps you also stay in motels, though it wouldn't surprise me if the Saudis were so cheap, they made you stay in tents.
It is true that today there is only ONE OF THE PAGAN IDOLS LEFT of the 360 that there were before Mohammed. The very same idol pagans still bow to, 5 times a day.

But the important questions regard the PERFORMANCE offered. Seeking favor of Mohammed's moon god "Allah" through acts of the flesh.

Did the pagans march around the kaaba 7 times?
Did the pagans venerate the same black stone idol that you do?
Did the pagans run back and forth between al safa and al marwah 7 times?
Did the pagans cut their hair in ceremony?
Did the pagans drink from the well of Zamzam that Mohammed's grandfather dug and dedicated to the most venerated priest and priestess of the Arabian jinn religion?
Did the pagans pray at the hill of Mina/Muna/Manat (Allah's daughter)?
Did the pagans clime up Arafa and cry out "Labeik Allahumma Labeik."?
Did the pagans cast stones?

Do you wonder why there is a crescent moon on top of your mosque? Why Muslims "fast" during the month that begins and ends with a crescent moon? Even the favorite shout of Mohammedan suicide murderers - ALLAHU AKBAR - means "Allah is the greatER", which for Arabian moon god worshipers meant that the moon god was the most powerful of all of the Arabian Star Family deities.
Are you beginning to get the drift? If you are unfamiliar with the origins of your pagan rituals, please visit the interesting link that follows. This is based on the actual historical record, not 7th and 8th century created Mohammedan historical fiction.

http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm
_____________________

ME:
Again I am not talking about anything that someone else told me about, I am talking about from my experience as I grew up with hinduism and christiany and islam I was born a muslim but I have family members who are of these religion and as they are family we are close and I participated in their events, so I learned about their religion.

So now because you claimed my asking the question was vague, ......]]]]]

Are you actually trying to pass this off as a "claim" of mine rather than the truth?
How many other ways could I have responded than I did?

[[[[[........ answer the question about WHAT IS YOUR CONCEPT OF GOD? And don't forget to include your trinitarian concepts, because clearly that is hiduism's grounds.....]]]]]

Don't be silly. According to you their deity even came as elephants and such. As you pointed out it is from their own books - because as you would agree, it certainly isn't from the Gospel.
Do you believe that Mohammed's "Allah" has a spirit?

Sura 15.29: "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

Who is the "I" and so who is the "MY"?
_______________________

[[[[[..... Customs etc are such a waste of time, because the thing that we are talking about is GOD.]]]]]

Let's start out with Yahweh's name. Which means "I AM". Google something like - YHWH Yahweh I AM
What does Yahshua's name mean?


Peter

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Re: HISTORY OF MECCA
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2010, 08:18:06 AM »
My friend, until you can present some historical record that predates the 4th century AD or some archaeological evidence, that suggest that Mecca ever existed before pagan immigrants from Yemen established it in around the 4th century AD, Mohammed's stand-alone religion, will remain the 7th and 8th century created fiction that it has been for 1400 years.

And please don't try to pull that Mecca is Zion Deedat business again.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1313.0