Author Topic: Ishmael, Hagar, Abraham, Paran & Mecca (Ismail, Hajar, Ibrahim)  (Read 30676 times)

Peter

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Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CG97A7aKds

ISHMAEL, HAGAR, PARAN & MECCA

Abraham's wife, Sarah, thought herself too advanced in age to bear a child, so she encouraged Abraham to have a child with her handmaiden Hagar, so that Abraham's name could be carried forward. But later on the Lord did bless Abraham and Sarah with a son.

Genesis 21:5 And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him.

Genesis 21:8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the [same] day that Isaac was weaned. 9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, [even] with Isaac. 11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. 12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. 13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he [is] thy seed.

14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave [it] unto Hagar, putting [it] on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. 15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.

Muslims have actually been taught that the "well of water" referenced in verse 19 above is the well of Zamzam in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. That would mean that between verse 14 when they were sent away, and 15 when their water ran out, Hagar and Ishmael would have had to travel across 1200 kilometers of - at that time - uninhabited, unexplored, uncharted desert, on a single skin of water, only to arrive at one of the harshest environments that Arabia has to offer. In fact, all of the historians and geographers from several centuries B.C. and on into the Christian era, who wrote about the area where Mecca was eventually built in the 4th century A.D., described the area as being "uninhabitable".
Please see the video "History of Mecca" for more on that subject.



Here is a sample Islamic site on the matter: "Abraham took Hagar and her son, Ishmael to a place near the Kabah; he left them under a tree at the site of Zamzam. No one lived in Makkah back then, yet Abraham made them sit there, leaving them with some dates, and a small water-skin. Thereafter he set out towards home."

So then apparently Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael walked across a 1200 kilometers of unknown desert, Abraham dropped them off under a tree in what eventually became Mecca, and then Abraham "set out" on his 1200 kilometer walk back home. Anything seem a bit peculiar about that picture?

Muslims are also taught that Ishmael was Abraham's only son at the time. Why would Abraham abandon his only son? Is Abraham supposed to have hung around Mecca until Ishmael got old enough to help him build the Kaaba? Or did he walk back "home" and then walk the 1200 kilometers back to Mecca? Did Sarah wander to Mecca so that she and Abraham could conceive their son Isaac? It's obvious how preposterously untenable the whole ridiculous story is, on so many levels, as created in Islam.

We know from scripture that Ishmael....

Genesis 21:21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran...






Genesis 21:21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

Are we to believe that Hagar traveled back the 1000 kilometers through the desert from Mecca to Egypt, and then back again, with Ishmael's wife?   Of course that's not the case because the historical and scriptural evidence suggest that the 12 tribes that developed from Ishmael's sons inhabited the northern Sinai peninsula, the Wilderness of Paran and surrounding area.

We also know that Ishmael wasn't very far away because he was available to attend his father Abraham's burial near Hebron.

Genesis 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre;

Amazingly, in order to resolve the preposterous suggestion that Abraham or Ishmael were ever at the place where Mecca was eventually built in the 4th century A.D. - 1200 kilometers from where Abraham actually lived - the most quoted 8th century Islamic "tradition" creators originated the idea that Abraham commuted back and forth to visit Ishmael in Mecca, on the winged donkey-mule, or Baraq (Tarikh al-Tabari, I, page 165). He also invoked this mythical animal to explain how Ishmael was able to attend Abraham's funeral, 1200 kilometers from Mecca.

In the Zoroastrian scriptures a fabled winged camel was used by their mythical prophet to travel to and from the place where their immortal ancestors were supposed to have dwelt. Mohammed also credited a similar creature for transporting him on an overnight journey, covering the 1200 kilometers to Jerusalem, then to heaven, and back to Mecca by morning. Please visit the "Mohammed's Night Journey" video for more on that extremely important subject, in Islam.

The biggest reason we also know that neither Abraham nor Ishmael visited Mecca, is because Mecca did not exist before immigrants from Yemen built it in the 4th century A.D., and built their Kaaba for Arabian Star Family worship in the early 5th century, of which their moon god stone idol Muslims still bow toward today. Please see the "History of Mecca" and "Mecca, the Kaaba, and the Black Stone" videos.

Romans 9:7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.    8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.    9  For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

To our Muslim friends, will you to continue to reject the 1600 year record of God to mankind, that we can see from the above is a perfect geographical and historical fit, or will you continue to follow Mohammed's stand-alone, antichrist, 7th century religion, and the flying camels of Islam's 7th and 8th century fiction? Are rehashed fables and jinn worship really what you want to bet your eternal destiny on? Have you ever even read the Bible?
____________________________________

[Edit addition]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buraq

"Abraham

The Buraq was also said to transport Abraham (Ibrahim) when he visited his wife Hagar and son Ishmael. According to tradition, Abraham lived with one wife in Syria, but the Buraq would transport him in the morning to Mecca to see his family there, and take him back in the evening to his Syrian wife.[4]"

As also reported by Ibn Ishaq "Tarikh al-Tabari", I, page 102 per Dr. rafat Amari "Islam In Light of History" page 66

Peter

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2010, 04:57:11 PM »
In the above post a Muslim suggested

"Abraham took Hagar and her son, Ishmael to a place near the Kabah; he left them under a tree at the site of Zamzam. No one lived in Makkah back then, yet Abraham made them sit there, leaving them with some dates, and a small water-skin. Thereafter he set out towards home."

So then apparently Abraham and Hagar, carrying Ishmael (Muslims believe he was an infant), wandered across a thousand miles of unknown, uncharted desert, over 900 years before history records the first caravan route was ever established along the Red Sea. Then Abraham dropped them off under a tree in the middle of nowhere (that is supposed to have eventually become Mecca), and then Abraham "set out" on his thousand mile walk back home.

Can you please explain this preposterous historical and geographical absurdity?

If you cannot answer that question then you have no choice but to understand the Islamic religion, and particularly the rituals you engage in, the same way that Mohammed's closest followers did.

Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (2.158) (Sahih al-Bukhari 2 Book 26 710)

In the case of Safa and Marwah as nothing more than repackaged pagan Arabian jinn devil worship that Mohammed's grandfather set up.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1282.0

punisher

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2010, 01:31:59 AM »
Brother Peter

I think u didn't read the complete history of Ibrahim

Abram was a true messenger of Allah, Allah has tested Abraham by giving him a son at the age of 100 years

Now why Allah tested Abraham because Allah want to know that

Was Ibrahim love his son most?????

or

Was Abraham love Allah most?????

This is way of teaching the lord to Abraham,

and also Kabba was first built by Adam and then Ibrahim and Son?????



Ibrahim (Abraham) (alayhis salam) and Sarah had been married for many years, but they had no children. In those days it was the custom for a man to take a second wife if he had no children with his first. Sarah suggested to Ibrahim that her Egyptian servant, Hajira, would be a good choice.Ibrahim agreed to this suggestion, and soon a son was born to Hajira, they called him Isma'il (Ishmael) (alayhis salam). Some time later Sarah, too, had a son, whose name was Ishaq (Isaac) (alayhis salam). Allah told Ibrahim and told him that from his sons would come two nations and three religions, but Ibrahim must do as Allah asked. Allah instructed Prophet Ibrahim (alayhis salam) to take Hajira and his son Isma'il to Arabia from Palestine. His other wife Sarah was jealous that Isma'il could become a leader instead of Ishaq, her own son.




So Ibrahim (alayhis salam) followed Allah 's  instructions. He took Hajira and his son Isma'il out of Palestine, travelling for several days. When they arrived at the valley of Bacca (Makkah), Ibrahim left Hajira and Isma'il, where nothing grew or lived.
He knew that Allah would take care of them.

Allah instructed Prophet Ibrahim (alayhis salam) to leave them there and he did so, with some food and drink. But it was not long before their water ran out.
Isma'il began to get very weak, and hungry, and started to cry. He began kicking his feet into the ground, 'kick, kick', 'kick, kick'

Hajira was desperate to find some help. There were two hills, Safa and Marwah, one on either side of the valley.

Hajira climbed first one, then the other, looking in all directions to find water. She saw nothing. Desperate, she ran from hill to hill seven times, searching in case she had missed any sign of help in the distance.

Hajira went up and down the two hills seven times, each time, returning to her son Isma'il, seeing how he was doing.

Sadly she returned to her son, and began to pray to Allah for help
[surah Baqarah, 2: 158]
Hajira looked at Isma'il, and saw something strange.

Bubbling and sparkling in the sun, there was a small spring of water rising out of the ground near her son’s feet! She was delighted, and relieved. They were saved.

All that kicking by Isma'il (alayhis salam) into the ground, caused a water-spring to gush from the earth.

They drank, and thanked Allah. The water was sweet and cool.

Hajira and Isma'il settled by this spring, which came to be called The Well of Zam-Zam, and is still visited by Muslims on pilgrimage today.

With their water supply secure, Hajira and Isma'il (alayhis salam) were able to trade with wandering nomads for food and other supplies.

From time to time Ibrahim (alayhis salam) would visit his second wife and their son in their new home, and he was amazed to see them owning such a profitable well.
[Surah Ali' Imran, 3: 96]

Isma'il (alayhis salam) grew into a fine man, and later helped his father Ibrahim in building the Ka'bah there in Makkah
[Surah Baqarah, 2: 125].

Isma'il (alayhis salam) is seen as the founder of the Arab nation, Ishaq of the Jewish nation. The three religions which have grown from those people are Judaism, Christianity and Islam.



Peter

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2010, 05:13:55 AM »
Brother Peter

I think u didn't read the complete history of Ibrahim

Abram was a true messenger of Allah, Allah has tested Abraham by giving him a son at the age of 100 years

Now why Allah tested Abraham because Allah want to know that

Was Ibrahim love his son most?????

or

Was Abraham love Allah most?????

This is way of teaching the lord to Abraham,

and also Kabba was first built by Adam and then Ibrahim and Son?????

Muslims have a bad habit of believing, that just because they are willing to repeat something, that was written in the 7th or 8th century, that makes it true.

But that isn't so. Please show us the HISTORICAL and ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE that suggests that the Kaaba ever existed, before the early 5th century when pagan immigrants from Yemen built it - from the ground up - just like even Mohammed indicated they did.

If you cannot bring EVIDENCE that suggests that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD, or it's Kaaba before the 5th century AD then a literate person would have to understand that everything that is taught regarding Islam prior to that time, is NOTHING MORE than 7th and 8th century PURE FICTION.

Peter

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2010, 05:56:15 AM »
Now try answering the question without simply citing a bunch of 7th and 8th century created foolishness.

How did Abraham and Hagar with Ishmael, wander across a thousand miles of barren, uncharted, desolate desert,  900 years before the first caravan route was ever established?

punisher

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2010, 06:20:35 AM »
Quote
Muslims have a bad habit of believing, that just because they are willing to repeat something, that was written in the 7th or 8th century, that makes it is true.

But that isn't so. Please show us the HISTORICAL and ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE that suggests that the Kaaba ever existed, before the early 5th century when the pagan immigrants from Yemen built it, just like Mohammed said they did.

If you cannot bring EVIDENCE that suggests that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD, or it's Kaaba before the 5th century AD then you will have to understand that everything that you have been taught about Islam prior to that time is NOTHING MORE than 7th and 8th century FICTION.

Ok Brother Do u Believe in Bible?????????????

I will prove u from Bible that Kabba existed


Psalm 138:2
I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word.

GOD Almighty's Holy Temple in Islam is the Kaaba in Mecca.



Genesis 28:16-18
16 When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, "Surely the LORD is in this place, and I was not aware of it."
17 He was afraid and said, "How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven."
18 Early the next morning Jacob took the stone he had placed under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on top of it.


Judges 20:18
18 The Israelites went up to Bethel (the House of GOD in Hebrew) and inquired of God. They said, "Who of us shall go first to fight against the Benjamites?" The LORD replied, "Judah shall go first.


1 Chronicles 6:47-49
47 the son of Mahli, the son of Mushi, the son of Merari, the son of Levi.
48 Their fellow Levites were assigned to all the other duties of the tabernacle, the house of God.
49 But Aaron and his descendants were the ones who presented offerings on the altar of burnt offering and on the altar of incense in connection with all that was done in the Most Holy Place, making atonement for Israel, in accordance with all that Moses the servant of God had commanded.


"Behold!  We gave the site, To Abraham, of the (Sacred) House (i.e., the Kaaba), (Saying):  'Associate not anything (In worship) with Me; And sanctify My House For those who compass it round, Or stand up, Or bow, or prostrate themselves (Therein in prayer).  And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways;   (The Noble Quran, 22:26-27)"


Paran in the Bible is Mecca today:

The sections of this article are:

1-  Paran in the Bible is Mecca today.
2-  Abraham peace be upon him sent Hagar and Ishmael to Paran.
3-  Mecca, Bacca and Paran.
4-  More Verses on Paran.
5-  Kaabah (the cube black building in Mecca) and Mecca.
6-  Paul in the book of Galatians and the most recent Archeological Discoveries
      suggest that Mount Sinai is in Saudi Arabia and NOT in Egypt's Sinai desert.

7-  Christian Archeologists prove from the Bible that Mount Sinai is in "Saudi Arabia" today.
8-  Muhammad in the Bible, (Isaiah 60), Pilgrimage to Mecca..!


In this article I will prove that "Paran" in the Bible is indeed referring to the city or the region of Mecca in Saudi Arabia today, where Prophet Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was born
and received the Divine Revelations of Islam.


Brother Peter i think Ur holly Bible is also saying about House of Allah (The Kabba)

Which is superior than Archeological Proof??

or u think archeological Proof is more superior than Bible?????

Ur Bible is showing about Kabba?? ( The House of Allah)

is their anything left

Thanks God the whole Bible is not corrupted, there are still some evidence left, Soon u will see these will vanish
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 06:25:32 AM by punisher »

punisher

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2010, 06:31:45 AM »
Abraham peace be upon him sent Hagar and Ishmael to Paran:

Let us look at the following Verses: "Then God opened her [Hagar] eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink.  God was with the boy as he grew up.  He lived in the desert and became an archer.  While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt.  At that time Abimelech and Phicol the commander of his forces said to Abraham, "God is with you in everything you do.   (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 21:19-22)"

Hagar was an Arab.  Abraham peace be upon him had Ishmael from her, who was 13 years older than Issac.  After Sarah, Abraham's wife gave birth to Issac, Abraham decided to let Hagar and her son Ishmael go.  He sent to the desert of Arabia in the region of Paran.

Then GOD Almighty promised Ishmael that from him, He will increase his numbers and make from him a great nation, the Arab nation; "And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.  (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 17:20)"

The Bible clearly says that Paran is south of Sinai in Egypt; "He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.'  (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"

Kedar came from Ishmael; "These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:  These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations. Kedar and Ancient Arabs (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 25:13)"  The Arabian desert region was named after Kedar.   See the second map below.






The Ishmaelites were Arabs and not Egyptians.  They came from the Arabian desert; "As they sat down to eat their meal, they looked up and saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead.  Their camels were loaded with spices, balm and myrrh, and they were on their way to take them down to Egypt.   (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 37:25)"  "take them down to Egypt" means taking them to the land of Egypt.  It doesn't mean taking them toward the south direction.  When for instance you say "my house is right down the street", it doesn't mean the house is south of the street.  The house could be on the north side.  The sentence means that the house is on the street, or will be found if the person walks in the path that you lead him to.

The point however in the above Verse is that the Ishmaelites were not from Egypt.  They came from another land.  They had loaded camels and they were heading to Egypt.  Arabs used to rely heavily on camels for traveling.  And as we've seen from the above Verses regarding Ishmael and his Mother (Hagar) living in the desert of Paran in the South, this clearly proves to us that the desert of Paran is located in Arabia and not in Egypt, since the Ishmaelites are not Egyptians.

Mecca, Bacca and Paran:

Let me paste for you the following Verses from the Bible and the Noble Quran:

"Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.  Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.  (From the NIV Bible, Psalms 84:5-6)"

"The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings: In it are signs manifest; (for example) the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith Allah stands not in need of any of his creatures.  (The Noble Quran, 3:96-97)"

"And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.  And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.   And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.  And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.  (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 21:17-21)"

 

More Verses on Paran:

"Then the Israelites set out from the Desert of Sinai and traveled from place to place until the cloud came to rest in the Desert of Paran.  (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 10:12)"   Here the desert of Paran means the region of Paran, which would be either at or near Mecca.

"After that, the people left Hazeroth and encamped in the Desert of Paran.  (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 12:16)"  Here the desert of Paran means the region of Paran, which would be either at or near Mecca.

"So at the LORD's command Moses sent them out from the Desert of Paran. All of them were leaders of the Israelites.  (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 13:3)"

"These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the desert east of the Jordan--that is, in the Arabah--opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab.  (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 1:1)"

Kaabah (the cube black building in Mecca) and Mecca:

Atharva Veda X, 2, Mantras 28 and 31
28. Whether it is built high, its walls are in a straight line or not, but God is seen in every corner of it. He who knows the House of God, knows it because God is remembered there.
31. This abode of the angels has eight circuits and nine gates. It is unconquerable, there is eternal life in it and it is resplendent with Divine light.

The Ka'bah is not exactly cubical and its sides are not of the same length.  The Holy Sanctuary (Haram) of which Ka'abah is at the center remains open day and night throughout the year and it is always filled with people praying and supplicating to Allah (the One True God). Muslims face toward it during prayer forming circle in the Haram (Holy House) and the circle extends out in this manner throughout the planet Earth.

The holy sanctuary (Haram) has remained unconquerable. Abraha al-Ashram, the Abbysinian viceroy of Yemen, tried to demolish it in 570 CE with a strong army and hordes of elephants but was prevented from entering the city (Holy precinct). The people of Makkah had decided not to defend the Ka'bah, fled the city and took refuge in nearby hills overlooking Ka'bah. By Allah's Command, the 'Abaabeel' (flying creatures, birds) pelted stones at Abraha's army and decimated it, leaving them like green crops devoured by cattle.

This incident is described in the Surah (chapter) 105 of the Qur'an. The year 570 CE is popularly known by the Arabs as 'The year of the Elephant,' and Prophet Muhammad was born in that year.

 

Paul in the book of Galatians and the most recent Archeological Discoveries suggest that Mount Sinai is in Saudi Arabia and NOT in Egypt's Sinai desert:

Recent archeological discoveries along with Paul's own words in Galatians 4:25 clearly suggest that Mount Sinai is located in Saudi Arabia.  This means that Paran being south of Mount Sinai clearly means that it is the Holy City of Mecca as I showed above:

The Bible clearly says that Paran is south of Sinai in Egypt; "He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.'  (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"

This verse is elaborated on further above.  Now, let us first look at Galatians 4:25, then the archeological evidence:

"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.  (From the NIV Bible, Galatians 4:25)"

Peter

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2010, 06:44:56 AM »
Abraham peace be upon him sent Hagar and Ishmael to Paran:

Let us look at the following Verses: "Then God opened her [Hagar] eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink.  God was with the boy as he grew up.  He lived in the desert and became an archer.  While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt.  At that time Abimelech and Phicol the commander of his forces said to Abraham, "God is with you in everything you do.   (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 21:19-22)"

You condemn pop modern bible versions, and then you turn around and quote from one.

Hagar was an Arab.

Gen 16:1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name [was] Hagar.

Abraham peace be upon him had Ishmael from her, who was 13 years older than Issac.  After Sarah, Abraham's wife gave birth to Issac, Abraham decided to let Hagar and her son Ishmael go.

It was Sarah's suggestion because she caught Ishmael mocking Isaac

Gen 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, [even] with Isaac.

and Abraham was grieved about throwing them out.

11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.

But then God set Abraham straight.

12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

So Abraham threw Hagar (his wife Sarah's servant) and Ishmael out, thereby disowning him, because God Himself indicated to Abraham to disinherit Ishmael.

Peter

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2010, 06:54:29 AM »
Paul in the book of Galatians and the most recent Archeological Discoveries suggest that Mount Sinai is in Saudi Arabia and NOT in Egypt's Sinai desert:

Before I continue with your unhistorical, unscriptural and geographical nonsense please answer this first.
Where is this presumed new location of Mt. Sinai in relation to Mecca?

punisher

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2010, 07:42:29 AM »
[disappeared then restored from database]

Paul in the book of Galatians and the most recent Archeological Discoveries suggest that Mount Sinai is in Saudi Arabia and NOT in Egypt's Sinai desert:

Before I continue with your unhistorical and geographical nonsense please answer this first.
Where is this presumed new location of Mt. Sinai in relation to Mecca?

Why isn't there any record of millions of Jews wandering in the desert?



There has been a lot of speculation on the route of the Exodus and why the traditional site hasn't yielded any archaeological evidence. After all, if two million people wander in a desert for forty years, you'd think that at least something would be found to support it. But, nothing at all has been unearthed in the Sinai Peninsula supporting the biblical account of the Exodus. Various explanations for this range from the idea that it is naturally difficult to find any archeological evidence in a desert of sand to the explanation that the traditional site is the wrong one.
First of all, no archaeological find has ever contradicted the Bible. Archaeology has only confirmed what the Bible says. As has been the case with so many other things in the Bible, as archaeology progresses, they will most certainly uncover evidence in the future. The Bible has yet to be proven wrong by archaeology.
Second, lack of evidence doesn't mean there wasn't an Exodus.However, this is a slippery slope since having a lack of evidence for an ice cream factory on Jupiter doesn't mean that there is one. What we need is evidence and it is fair to say that there should be some evidence for the wanderings of two million people for forty years in a desert.
Third, it may be that the traditional site of Mt. Sinai is incorrect. Gal. Gal. 4:25 says "Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children." Present theories dealing with Mt. Sinai's location have it in the Sinai Peninsula, yet the Bible says it was in Arabia. The map to the right shows the traditionally accepted route (in black) and the currently accepted location of Mt. Sinai. The problem is that there has been absolutely no archaeological evidence unearthed at that site to verify the Exodus. The route in red shows an alternate path that is consistent with Paul's description in Gal. 4:25. This would have Mt. Sinai be in Arabia, which is now Saudi Arabia, instead of the traditionally accepted Sinai peninsula.
In a recent book titled "In search of the Mountain of God," by Bob Cornuke and David Halbrook (Broadman and Holman, 2000), Bob Cornuke (a Christian) recounts his story of going into Saudi Arabia with his friend Larry Williams (a non-Christian commodities trader).
They uncovered evidence of an alternate site where the real Mt. Sinai might be. Bob Cornuke was a police officer, swat team member, and crime scene investigator in Southern California and is the President of the Bible Archaeology Search and Exploration (BASE) Institute BaseInstitute.org. He and Mr. Williams have produced a video and book (available on that site) where they claim to have found evidence in Saudi Arabia to support that Mt. Sinai is located within its borders. Now, I must admit that this has not been verified by any "official" archaeologists, but the video, which I have seen, does raise some interesting possibilities.
Mr. Cornuke and Williams claim to have simply let the Bible guide them as they attempted to locate the actual route of the Jews of the Exodus.Through trial and error over several weeks, they followed what they believed was the route as is laid out by the Bible and they found the items described in Exodus 13 - 19 including, springs, a split rock, an altar, an underwater land bridge at the end of the Sinai Peninsula where the people of Israel could have crossed, and much more. The present location of Mt. Sinai, according to the locals in their account, is known as Jabal Al Laws as is traditionally known by them as the mount of Moses. The Saudis have the area fenced off with warning signs in Arabic and English telling people not to enter. If this is so, why would the Saudis not want anyone to know about the place? It might be because if Mt. Sinai is located in Muslim territory then one of the most holy places of the Jewish and Christian religions it could pose serious political problems.
I must admit that this is speculative at present and it has not been verified. But the video was compelling. Whether or not this is a valid option is yet to be determined and it is supportive of the idea that the traditional location of Exodus route might indeed be incorrect, as Gal. 4:25 seems to suggest.

Christian Archeologists prove from the Bible that Mount Sinai is in "Saudi Arabia" today:

From http://www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_1.html

Is Mount SINAI in the SINAI?

For centuries Bible scholars and religious pilgrims have been seeking the location of the real Mt. Sinai.Today, most people are unaware that not one piece of hard evidence has been produced to verify that what is traditionally designated at “Mount Sinai” in the south central Sinai Peninsula is indeed the famed mountain of Moses and the Exodus. In fact, the only verifiable reason that the traditional site is designated “Mount Sinai” at all is because a Roman mystic designated it and Helena, mother of Constantine I, anointed it as the true Mount Sinai early in the 4th century AD. (Helena also claimed she discovered the true “holy sepulchre” in Jerusalem and the true cross of Christ.)

Several other proposed sites for the true Mount Sinai have been suggested by biblical scholars, but thus far they have produced no archaeological evidence to support them. If we are ever to discern a correct location for the historical events recorded in the biblical Book of Exodus, it’s important to use the Scriptures as a guide, just as we would use any ancient documents that have proven reliable in the past.

In the New Testament, Paul wrote in Galatians 4:25, “Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia . . .”Although some argue that here the Roman designation of Arabia includes the Sinai Peninsula, Arabia in Paul’s day encompassed a larger region that primarily designated the populated regions of ancient Midian, or modern-day Saudi Arabia. As a “Hebrew of Hebrews,” Paul’s understanding of Arabia would have been one that was consistent with Old Testament passages like 1 Kings 10:15, 2 Chronicles 9:14, Isaiah 21:13, Jeremiah 25:24, and Ezekiel 27:21, in which Arabia is clearly identified with the region east of the Gulf of Aqaba, where “kings” ruled and the “Dedanites” co-dwelt with other nomadic peoples.

Even more telling, Exodus 3:1 plainly identifies Mount Horeb (Sinai) as being in Midian: “Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.” Here, there are two important issues. First, the region of “Midian” referred to here is undeniably the same as present-day Saudi Arabia. Second, at the traditional site of Mt. Sinai on the Sinai Peninsula, there is nothing that would cause it to be geographically identified with the “back” of a desert, in distinction from its surroundings. By contrast, the site proposed by BASE Institute is, indeed, on the far side or margin of a vast desert in ancient Midian.

However, can ancient Midian be identified with the Sinai Peninsula, which in the time of Moses, was considered a part of Egypt (although designated as the “wilderness” of Egypt)? It is apparent from Exodus 2:15 that the two were separate entities. After killing an Egyptian, Moses fled Egypt for safer ground: “When Pharaoh heard of this, he tried to kill Moses, but Moses fled from Pharaoh and went to live in Midian.” Egypt and its holdings would not have been safe for Moses under any circumstances. He would not have fled to the Sinai Peninsula, where archaeology shows that Pharaoh had multiple mining interests and military outposts. The Bible is clear that Moses went out of Egypt, to the land of Midian east of the gulf of Aqaba.

The Bible makes several references to Moses returning to Egypt from Midian, including Exodus 4:19 where we read, “Now the Lord had said to Moses in Midian, ‘Go back to Egypt, for all the men who wanted to kill you are dead.” All passages associated with Moses’ stay in Midian point toward present-day Saudi Arabia as the area to which Moses fled, subsequently met God at the burning bush, and then returned with the children of Israel.

Because so many Bible references as well as archaeological evidence (or the lack of it) pointed away from traditional Mount Sinai and toward Saudi Arabia as the location of the historical mountain of Moses, a site inspection was necessary to determine if other evidence could be found to support this theory. Saudi Arabia’s closed borders made it impossible for a team of scholars and archaeologists to enter the country. As a result, Larry Williams and I surreptitiously slipped into the country, traced what appears to be the Exodus route, and climbed the mountain which many scholars now consider to be the true Mount Sinai.

What follows is a condensed account of our adventures, our findings, and how these relate directly to the Bible.

From http://www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_2.html

Mt. Sinai - the Evidence

RED SEA CROSSING SITE In 1 Kings 9:26, the Bible tells us, “King Solomon also built ships at Ezion Geber, which is near Elath in Edom, on the shore of the Red Sea.” This verse provides us with some compelling clues. First, Solomon had his port at Elath (modern Eilat) on the shores of the northern tip of the Gulf of Aqaba (which forms the eastern “finger” of the Red Sea proper). The NIV Study Bible references this verse as follows: “Red Sea. The Hebrew for this term, normally read as Yam Suph (‘sea of reeds’), refers to the body of water through which the Israelites passed at the time of the Exodus. It can also be read, however, as Yam Soph (‘sea of land’s end’), a more likely reading when referring to the Red Sea, and especially . . . to its eastern arm, the Gulf of Aqaba.”

This could well mean that the “sea of land’s end,” at the tip of the Sinai Peninsula, was the site of the Israelites’ crossing. At the very least, the use of the same Hebrew term both for the place where the Israelites crossed and for the Gulf of Aqaba at Elath shows that the body of water in question is not an isolated lake, but includes the bulk of what we know as the Red Sea.

BITTER LAKES: Many scholars suggest that the actual crossing of the “sea of reeds” was in the Bitter Lakes region, north of the Gulf of Suez, where some observers have claimed that wind can cause the lake level to fluctuate several feet. However, this simply is not consistent with numerous other Biblical references, including the account of an entire, Egypt-engulfing locust swarm being blown into Yam Suph (Exodus 10:19), Solomon sailing a fleet of ships on Yam Suph (1 Kings 9:26), and the description of the way in which Pharaoh’s soldiers died at Yam Suph: “But You blew with your breath, and the sea covered them. They sank like lead in the mighty waters” (Exodus 15:10). The Bitter Lakes region is a marsh with no mighty waters. At the tip of the Sinai Peninsula, however, at the entrance of the Gulf of Aqaba, the “mighty waters” of the Red Sea can reach incredible fury and awesome depths.

TRADITIONAL MOUNT SINAI: Having visited the traditional Mount Sinai in the southern Sinai Peninsula, I have seen first hand that the only place the Israelites could possibly have camped was a small, flat valley area adjacent to the mountain, allowing for only about one square yard per person (assuming that roughly 2 million people were involved in the Exodus). And despite extensive archeological investigation throughout the region, nothing has ever been found that can conclusively be tied to the Exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt - or can even argue for a large population of people ever occupying the area.

UNDERWATER LAND BRIDGE: Following a theory that the route of the Exodus actually took the Hebrews past (not through) the bitter Lakes and then southward along the west coast of the Sinai Peninsula, we traveled to the tip of the Sinai and explored the underwater topography (bathymetry) of the Strait of Tiran, where the Gulf of Aqaba is narrowest between the Sinai Peninsula and Saudi Arabia. There we found that an underwater land bridge exists that today is so problematic for shipping that two separate routes or “lanes” are designated for northbound and southbound ships to pass through. Further correlation of the Bible’s account of the route of the Exodus causes us to realize that this unusual submarine formation may well have been trod by the Hebrews themselves.

BITTER SPRINGS OF MARAH: Exploring the further possibility that the Israelites passed through the waters of the Red Sea at the Strait of Tiran, we picked up our search for landmarks on the Saudi Arabia side of the Gulf of Aqaba. There we started at the coastline on the eastern side of the Strait of Tiran and traveled the most natural route approximately 30 kilometers inland to a group of springs, where the water in some of the springs was terribly bitter. Exodus 15:22-23 tells us, “So Moses brought Israel from the Red Sea; then they went out into the wilderness of Shur. And they went three days in the wilderness and found no water. Now when they came to Marah, they could not drink the waters of Marah, for they were bitter.”

THE 70 PALMS AND 12 SPRINGS OF ELIM: As we traveled generally toward Jabal al Lawz (the Saudi Arabian mountain that is held by generations of Bedouins to be the mountain of Moses), we next encountered a group of clear water springs, with a grove of palm trees adjacent to them. We marveled at the description in Exodus 15:27: “Then they came to Elim, where there were twelve wells of water and seventy palm trees; so they camped there by the waters.”

CAVES OF MOSES: While at the springs, we discovered that some nearby caves were being excavated by Saudi archaeologists. A worker at the site said that writings found in the caves indicated that the prophet Musa (Moses) had come through this area with his nation of Hebrews.

CHARRED PEAK AND MELTED ROCK: Continuing to Jabal al Lawz, and after a great deal of maneuvering to gain access to the mountain, we found the top of the mountain to be thoroughly blackened, as if the rocks had been severely scorched from without. When we broke open the rocks, we found that they were actually granite rocks with a blackened “rind” and an untouched core of pure granite inside. We had already read in Exodus 19:18, “Now Mount Sinai was completely in smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire . . . .”

BOUNDARY MARKERS: As we explored further around the base of the mountain, we discovered large piles of rocks arranged in a semicircle around the front of the mountain, spaced about every 400 yards. Measuring about five feet high and 20 feet across, these piles could be the boundary markers set up by Moses, as he had been instructed by God: “. . . You warned us saying, ‘set bounds around the mountain and consecrate it’” (Exodus 19:23).

GOLDEN CALF ALTAR: In a flat area at the base of the mountain we also discovered that large boulders had been placed together, creating an altar-like formation 30 feet tall and 30 feet across - quite possibly the altar where the golden calf was set up and worshiped by God’s disobedient people. On the rocks were etched ancient drawings of a bull god, as described in Exodus 32:4, where Aaron “. . . received the gold from the hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf.”

More Evidence follows on the next page including information on the golden calf, the split rock at Horeb, the 12 pillars, Moses' altar and Elijah's cave.

From http://www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_3.html

Mt. Sinai - More Evidence[/b]

GOLDEN CALF ALTAR: In a flat area at the base of the mountain we also discovered that large boulders had been placed together, creating an altar-like formation 30 feet tall and 30 feet across - quite possibly the altar where the golden calf was set up and worshiped by God’s disobedient people. On the rocks were etched ancient drawings of a bull god, as described in Exodus 32:4, where Aaron “. . . received the gold from the hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf.”

MOSES' ALTAR and the 12 PILLARS: At the foot of the mountain we found a V-shaped altar, with each arm approximately 60 feet long and 20 feet wide. Next to it were several toppled pillars in sections measuring about 22 inches in diameter and 20 inches in length. Exodus 24:4 records that Moses “. . . built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel.”

SPLIT ROCK AT HOREB: (Full credit for verification and documentation of the split rock at Horeb goes to Jim and Penny Caldwell, who conducted their research while living in Saudi Arabia.) One of the most startling discoveries at Jabal al Lawz was a massive, prominent, split rock on the west side of Jabal al Lawz, which showed evidence of gushing water from within - jagged rocks that had been smoothed off by an abundant flow of water. Exodus 17:6 records God’s instructions to Moses when the Israelites were dying of thirst in the wilderness: “Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock in Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink.”

CAVE OF ELIJAH: High on the mountain was a cave by which Elijah may have stood to hear God’s voice, as described in 1 Kings 19:18b, 13b: “. . . and he went . . . as far as Horeb, the mountain of God . . . . and he went out and stood in the entrance of the cave . . . .”

This expedition yielded the first of a wealth of compelling new evidence, to suggest that the Strait of Tiran on the Gulf of Aqaba was the crossing point for the route of the Exodus, and that Jabal al Lawz in Saudi Arabia is the true Mount Sinai.

The real significance in all this is that the Bible again has apparently been shown to be true, reliable, and accurate, down to the smallest historical detail. Critics who claim that the Bible does not coincide with known history and geography are again shown to be wrong once the physical evidence begins to surface. The account in the Bible is true, and the implications are incredible.

God descended on Mount Sinai in flames like a furnace. He spoke to Moses and gave him the Ten Commandments as the laws for the life of Israel. He communicated His love and mercy through the laws for sacrifice and atonement. And though we are unworthy, He gave us the opportunity to enter into a personal, caring relationship with the Eternal Father.

The exploits of the BASE Institute team may sound like a treasure hunt to others, but a more important adventure awaits those who would seek out the treasures of the Word of God. The Bible reveals His plan for reconciliation - and the most important discovery any of us can ever make is how to begin a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. This is the best adventure.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 07:16:25 AM by PeteWaldo »

Peter

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2010, 07:47:54 AM »
Paul in the book of Galatians and the most recent Archeological Discoveries suggest that Mount Sinai is in Saudi Arabia and NOT in Egypt's Sinai desert:

Before I continue with your unhistorical and geographical nonsense please answer this first.
Where is this presumed new location of Mt. Sinai in relation to Mecca?

Why isn't there any record of millions of Jews wandering in the desert?



So according to your own map, the new location of Mt. Sinai is no closer to Mecca than the old location (as the crow flies).
The new location of Mt. Sinai is still A THOUSAND KILOMETERS across harsh Arabian desert from where Mecca was eventually built. And the period being discussed is over 900 years before recorded history tells us the first caravan route was ever established along that thousand kilometers.

So how did Abraham and Hagar, with Ishmael, wander across a thousand kilometers of barren, uncharted, desolate Arabian desert, 900 years before the first caravan route was ever established along that thousand kilometers?

Peter

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2010, 07:53:04 AM »
Mecca, Bacca and Paran:

Let me paste for you the following Verses from the Bible and the Noble Quran:

"Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.  Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.  (From the NIV Bible, Psalms 84:5-6)"

"The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings: In it are signs manifest; (for example) the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith Allah stands not in need of any of his creatures.  (The Noble Quran, 3:96-97)"

"And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.  And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.   And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.  And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.  (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 21:17-21)"

If you try the search function of the forum you could avoid embarrassing yourself with this copy and paste Deedat nonsense.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1313.0

Why not look at the next verse after the one you quoted?

84:7 They go from strength to strength, [every one of them] in Zion appeareth before God.

Zion is mentioned 153 times in the Bible because it is the name of the easternmost hill of the city of Jerusalem.
Thus we see this passage describing a journey to ZION - to Jerusalem - to the Holy Land. Baca simply being a stop along the way.

more http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1313.0

Peter

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2010, 08:19:42 AM »
Quote
Muslims have a bad habit of believing, that just because they are willing to repeat something, that was written in the 7th or 8th century, that makes it is true.

But that isn't so. Please show us the HISTORICAL and ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE that suggests that the Kaaba ever existed, before the early 5th century when the pagan immigrants from Yemen built it, just like Mohammed said they did.

If you cannot bring EVIDENCE that suggests that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD, or it's Kaaba before the 5th century AD then you will have to understand that everything that you have been taught about Islam prior to that time is NOTHING MORE than 7th and 8th century FICTION.

Ok Brother Do u Believe in Bible?????????????

I will prove u from Bible that Kabba existed


Psalm 138:2
I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word.

GOD Almighty's Holy Temple in Islam is the Kaaba in Mecca.

I see. So every time a temple is mentioned in scripture, it is referring to the Kaaba. The problem with that view is that God's temple was built IN JERUSALEM on the TEMPLE MOUNT in THE Holy Land, the evidence of which still stands today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem

Whereas history records that the Kaaba in Mecca was dedicated, like the other similar kaabas in Arabia, to pagan Arabian Star Family and jinn demon worship.
Even Islamic history confirms this, admitting to the 360 idols that were there before Mohammed. Muslims still venerate one of those idols today, bowing toward it 5 times a day, and even traveling to it and circumambulating it just as the pagan Arabs did.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1050.0

Indeed the Muslims joined the Pagans in that ritual, and then later on, threw them out of their own ritual.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 689:
    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    In the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Allahs Apostle made Abu Bakr the leader of the pilgrims, the latter (Abu Bakr) sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'
http://brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm#twaf

Peter

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2010, 08:51:42 AM »
Genesis 28:16-18
16 When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, "Surely the LORD is in this place, and I was not aware of it."
17 He was afraid and said, "How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven."
18 Early the next morning Jacob took the stone he had placed under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on top of it.


Judges 20:18
18 The Israelites went up to Bethel (the House of GOD in Hebrew) and inquired of God. They said, "Who of us shall go first to fight against the Benjamites?" The LORD replied, "Judah shall go first.


1 Chronicles 6:47-49
47 the son of Mahli, the son of Mushi, the son of Merari, the son of Levi.
48 Their fellow Levites were assigned to all the other duties of the tabernacle, the house of God.
49 But Aaron and his descendants were the ones who presented offerings on the altar of burnt offering and on the altar of incense in connection with all that was done in the Most Holy Place, making atonement for Israel, in accordance with all that Moses the servant of God had commanded.


"Behold!  We gave the site, To Abraham, of the (Sacred) House (i.e., the Kaaba), (Saying):  'Associate not anything (In worship) with Me; And sanctify My House For those who compass it round, Or stand up, Or bow, or prostrate themselves (Therein in prayer).  And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways;   (The Noble Quran, 22:26-27)"


Paran in the Bible is Mecca today:

The sections of this article are:

1-  Paran in the Bible is Mecca today.
2-  Abraham peace be upon him sent Hagar and Ishmael to Paran.
3-  Mecca, Bacca and Paran.
4-  More Verses on Paran.
5-  Kaabah (the cube black building in Mecca) and Mecca.
6-  Paul in the book of Galatians and the most recent Archeological Discoveries
      suggest that Mount Sinai is in Saudi Arabia and NOT in Egypt's Sinai desert.

7-  Christian Archeologists prove from the Bible that Mount Sinai is in "Saudi Arabia" today.
8-  Muhammad in the Bible, (Isaiah 60), Pilgrimage to Mecca..!


In this article I will prove that "Paran" in the Bible is indeed referring to the city or the region of Mecca in Saudi Arabia today, where Prophet Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was born
and received the Divine Revelations of Islam.


Brother Peter i think Ur holly Bible is also saying about House of Allah (The Kabba)

Which is superior than Archeological Proof??

or u think archeological Proof is more superior than Bible?????

Scripture, geography and archaeology offer us perfectly reasonable accounts of where Hagar and Ishmael wandered and settled. The wilderness of Paran is located across the northern Sinai peninsula and east to what is the trans-Jordan border, as shown in the map in the OP.

It's utterly absurd to suggest that it was near Mecca. Do you think Ishmael's Egyptian mother wandered a thousand kilometers north to Egypt and a thousand kilometers back again, 900 years before the first caravan route was ever established, to fetch Ishmael a wife?

Gen 21:21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

Do you think that Ishmael wandered the 1200 kilometers from Mecca to Machpelah, near Hebron, 900 years before the first caravan route was ever established, in time to attend Abraham's burial?
http://www.bibleplaces.com/hebron.htm

Genesis 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre;

You see, the bible offers us perfectly reasonable historical explanations, consistent with geography, and evermore confirmed by archaeology.
But you reject that sound record in favor of a bunch of historically false, scripturally denied, archaeologically unsupported, and geographically preposterous, 7th and 8th century created Mohammedan history fiction and unmitigated Deedat poppycock, that can only pretend to confirm or legitimize Mohammed's repackaged 7th century pagan demon worship.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1267.0

So what does rejecting that record make you, as you also aptly displayed here?

1John 5:10  He that BELIEVETH ON THE SON OF GOD hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave OF HIS SON.

Ur Bible is showing about Kabba?? ( The House of Allah)

is their anything left

Thanks God the whole Bible is not corrupted, there are still some evidence left, Soon u will see these will vanish

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1481.msg6041#msg6041

Peter

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2010, 09:23:13 AM »
Even more amazing, you reject God's record, to follow the record of an unrepentant thief.
If you want to deny that please do it on that subject following link.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=951.0

punisher

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2010, 09:28:13 AM »
Paul in the book of Galatians and the most recent Archeological Discoveries suggest that Mount Sinai is in Saudi Arabia and NOT in Egypt's Sinai desert:

Before I continue with your unhistorical and geographical nonsense please answer this first.
Where is this presumed new location of Mt. Sinai in relation to Mecca?

Why isn't there any record of millions of Jews wandering in the desert?



So according to your own map, the new location of Mt. Sinai is no closer to Mecca than the old location (as the crow flies).
The new location of Mt. Sinai is still A THOUSAND KILOMETERS across harsh Arabian desert from where Mecca was eventually built. And the period being discussed is over 900 years before recorded history tells us the first caravan route was ever established along that thousand kilometers.

So how did Abraham and Hagar, with Ishmael, wander across a thousand kilometers of barren, uncharted, desolate Arabian desert, 900 years before the first caravan route was ever established along that thousand kilometers?



There has been a lot of speculation on the route of the Exodus and why the traditional site hasn't yielded any archaeological evidence.  After all, if two million people wander in a desert for forty years, you'd think that at least something would be found to support it.  But, nothing at all has been unearthed in the Sinai Peninsula supporting the biblical account of the Exodus.  Various explanations for this range from the idea that it is naturally difficult to find any archeological evidence in a desert of sand to the explanation that the traditional site is the wrong one.
     First of all, no archaeological find has ever contradicted the Bible.  Archaeology has only confirmed what the Bible says.  As has been the case with so many other things in the Bible, as archaeology progresses, they will most certainly uncover evidence in the future.  The Bible has yet to be proven wrong by archaeology

Brother their are evidence in Bible, as the bible is corrupted so no one can say nothing


 Second, lack of evidence doesn't mean there wasn't an Exodus.   However, this is a slippery slope since having a lack of evidence for an ice cream factory on Jupiter doesn't mean that there is one.  What we need is evidence and it is fair to say that there should be some evidence for the wanderings of two million people for forty years in a desert.
     Third, it may be that the traditional site of Mt. Sinai is incorrect.  Gal. Gal. 4:25 says "Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children." Present theories dealing with Mt. Sinai's location have it in the Sinai Peninsula, yet the Bible says it was in Arabia.  The map to the right shows the traditionally accepted route (in black) and the currently accepted location of Mt. Sinai.  The problem is that there has been absolutely no archaeological evidence unearthed at that site to verify the Exodus.   The route in red shows an alternate path that is consistent with Paul's description in Gal. 4:25.  This would have Mt. Sinai be in Arabia, which is now Saudi Arabia, instead of the traditionally accepted Sinai peninsula.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 09:30:52 AM by punisher »

Peter

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2010, 01:13:06 PM »
Paul in the book of Galatians and the most recent Archeological Discoveries suggest that Mount Sinai is in Saudi Arabia and NOT in Egypt's Sinai desert:

Before I continue with your unhistorical and geographical nonsense please answer this first.
Where is this presumed new location of Mt. Sinai in relation to Mecca?

Why isn't there any record of millions of Jews wandering in the desert?



So according to your own map, the new location of Mt. Sinai is no closer to Mecca than the old location (as the crow flies).
The new location of Mt. Sinai is still A THOUSAND KILOMETERS across harsh Arabian desert from where Mecca was eventually built. And the period being discussed is over 900 years before recorded history tells us the first caravan route was ever established along that thousand kilometers.

So how did Abraham and Hagar, with Ishmael, wander across a thousand kilometers of barren, uncharted, desolate Arabian desert, 900 years before the first caravan route was ever established along that thousand kilometers?

There has been a lot of speculation on the route of the Exodus and why the traditional site hasn't yielded any archaeological evidence.  After all, if two million people wander in a desert for forty years, you'd think that at least something would be found to support it.  But, nothing at all has been unearthed in the Sinai Peninsula supporting the biblical account of the Exodus.  Various explanations for this range from the idea that it is naturally difficult to find any archeological evidence in a desert of sand to the explanation that the traditional site is the wrong one.

But BOTH of the routes on YOUR MAP are A THOUSAND KILOMETERS FROM MECCA.
You seem to have difficulty understanding the map that you posted. You see those 2 fingers of water in your map? Now look at this zoom-out and see if you can find those two fingers of water again. Then look at the scale on the map which is 750 kilometers. Now look at the location of Mecca down in the lower right-hand corner of the map.



    First of all, no archaeological find has ever contradicted the Bible.  Archaeology has only confirmed what the Bible says.

And all that in spite of that record being thousands of years old. The very record that you characterize as being "corrupted".

 As has been the case with so many other things in the Bible, as archaeology progresses, they will most certainly uncover evidence in the future.  The Bible has yet to be proven wrong by archaeology

That's correct, as I have indicated repeatedly.
Archaeology is how we can confirm Abraham's travels.



You see those two fingers of water again? NOT WITHIN A THOUSAND KILOMETERS OF MECCA. We can see from the map Abraham's travels were many hundreds of miles EVEN FURTHER AWAY FROM MECCA - in addition to the thousand miles of either location of Mt. Sinai - from mecca.

Historical and archaeological EVIDENCE is also how we know that Mecca was not established before the forth century AD, and it's kaaba before about the early 5th century, when it was built was a local center for pagan star and jinn demon worship.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1267.0

It wasn't even the most significant center after Mohammed invented his religion, since the Hadith indicates that Mohammed's own tribe the Quraish still went on summer and winter pilgrimages, indicating that there were far more important kaabas in Arabia to worship the moon, sun and planets deities than Mecca.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1140.0

Quran 106:1 For the covenants by the Quraish, 2 Their covenants journeys by winter and summer,- 3 Let them adore the Lord of this House,

Where do the Qiblas of the oldest mosques point to?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1272.0

Brother their are evidence in Bible, as the bible is corrupted so no one can say nothing

 Second, lack of evidence doesn't mean there wasn't an Exodus.   However, this is a slippery slope since having a lack of evidence for an ice cream factory on Jupiter doesn't mean that there is one.  What we need is evidence and it is fair to say that there should be some evidence for the wanderings of two million people for forty years in a desert.

What are people WANDERING in a desert supposed to be expected to leave behind besides their dung?
Cities, industrial parks and automobiles?
Any bits of things they left behind, would be limited to what they could carry, and would be scattered throughout the entire area in which they wandered.

    Third, it may be that the traditional site of Mt. Sinai is incorrect.  Gal. Gal. 4:25 says "Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children." Present theories dealing with Mt. Sinai's location have it in the Sinai Peninsula, yet the Bible says it was in Arabia.  The map to the right shows the traditionally accepted route (in black) and the currently accepted location of Mt. Sinai.  The problem is that there has been absolutely no archaeological evidence unearthed at that site to verify the Exodus.   The route in red shows an alternate path that is consistent with Paul's description in Gal. 4:25.  This would have Mt. Sinai be in Arabia, which is now Saudi Arabia, instead of the traditionally accepted Sinai peninsula.

So how did Abraham and Hagar, with Ishmael, wander across a thousand kilometers of barren, uncharted, desolate Arabian desert, 900 years before the first caravan route was ever established along that thousand kilometers?

You can see from the evidence presented that it is preposterous for anyone to believe they did.

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2010, 07:21:35 PM »

My two cents worth:

I agree that there has been a lot of speculation about the location of Mt Sinai. My personal opinion is that it is in Arabia from the limited information I have seen on the internet. But I also agree with Peter that it is still nearly 1000 miles from Mecca (est: 4th century A.D).

Unfortunately Jabal El Lawz is in Saudi Arabia and once the mountains significance was bought to light it was quickly fenced off by the Saudi's to stop any exploration by non -muslims. In light of this newish information it just shows the authenticity of the Bible in that the Exodus did actually happen.

punisher

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2010, 02:26:31 AM »
(disappeared then restored from database on 12-21-14)

Ok Brother Peter What do u say about this???

First of all, no archaeological find has ever contradicted the Bible.  Archaeology has only confirmed what the Bible says.

As Bible is Corrupted by the people so i said we say nothing. Only on the day of Judgment Allah will tell the real story of MT Sanai?????





What Are The Characteristics of Mount Sinai?

What Are The Characteristics of Mount Sinai?

Before exploring the “out back” of the Arabian wilderness for the mountain, we listed what the scriptures said about it:

1.) It was said to be located in Arabia (not the Sinai Peninsula) (Galatians 4:25), and not in Egypt, (Exodus 2:15,19, 3:8.10,12 ­ the Sinai Peninsula is part of Egypt, and was so at the time of Moses).

2.) It was said to be located in the furthest northwest corner of Arabia called Midian (Exodus 4:19-25 ­ to locate Midian, see your LDS Bible Maps).

3.) The burning bush and subsequently the camp of Israel was said to be on the backside of the mountain, the side away from the homeland of Moses and Jethro (Exodus 3:1-2).

4.) There was an altar built of unhewn stones (Exodus 20:24-26),

5.) Sinai had a brook (Deuteronomy 9:21).

6.) An altar of the Golden Calf was made within sight of the Mount Sinai (Exodus 32:17-19).

7.) Boundary markers were erected to prevent the children of Israel from coming up the mountain (Exodus 19:23).

8.) Twelve pillars were set up for each tribe (Exodus 24:4).

9.) Sinai had a habitable cave that was used by Elijah (1 Kings 19:8-9).

10.) The mountain was “exceedingly high” (Moses 1:1).

11.) There was room for approximately 3,000,000 Israelites to camp next to the mountain (Exodus 12:37).

12.) From the campsite at the foot of the mountain, the children of Israel could see the presence of God (Exodus 19:17-18).

13.) There was ample grazing for their animals for an extended period of time.


Golden Calf Altar at Arabian Sinai Candidate

The Traditional Site for the Mountain of Moses
There seems to have been no rational reason why the St. Catherine’s mountain on the Sinai Peninsula was labeled Mount Sinai. All we know is that a psychic had convinced Constantine that this remote mountain near the southern end of the Sinai peninsula was the sacred mountain. Tim Sedor and I visited St. Catherine’s and found it a poor candidate. Williams and Conuke also visited St. Catherine’s and outlined these reasons why it could not be Mount Sinai. 1) Moses would not have driven Jethro’s flocks nearly two hundred miles to a land that is almost entirely void of fodder for sheep. 2) There is not enough room for large encampment at the St. Catherine’s site. Indeed the nearest campsite would have been what is referred to as the wadi of the Rest. This wadi could not have been where the children of Israel camped because the mountain is not visible from the campsite, and we know that the children of Israel were able to see the presence of God on the mountain. 3) The terrain is extremely barren, the flocks of the children of Israel would have starved. 4) Moses, a man of eighty years of age, would have needed to climb a mountain that requires mountaineering equipment, 5) The mountain has no source of drinking water. Why would Moses have led more than 2.5 million people to a place with no water? 6) There is no archeological evidence that there was an encampment of nearly 3,000,000 people. 7) None of the other features described in the Bible are found there (i.e. cave, creek, etc.)

We concluded that the traditional view of Mount Sinai, as found on the southern end of the Sinai Peninsula, is a myth that is promoted mainly by the Egyptian Ministry of Tourism. After visiting the mountain in 2001, I now understand why its credibility has been discounted away over the last hundred years.

Remains of Marble Columns at Arabian Sinai Candidate

So Where is the Mountain of God?
One modern commentary to the Torah contains a map showing eight possible candidates for Mount Sinai. Indeed, the quest to find Mount Sinai has baffled explorers and scholars for millennia, and the scriptures seem to suggest that the mountain’s real location might never be revealed (Moses 1:42). However, the Apostle Paul seems to have known Sinai’s location. He placed the Mountain of Moses in Arabia (Galatians 4:25), not in the Sinai Peninsula. Paul’s testimony of where the sacred mountain was located seems to have been based on what he saw in that desert land. Paul wrote that, “Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia….” (Galatians 1:17) Since Paul spent time in Arabia, it is possible that he actually visited the mountain himself. Regardless, if we are to trust this great Apostle the seven of the eight proposed sites of Mount Sinai should be dismissed. They are not even found in Arabia.

What is most impressive about the only Arabian Mount Sinai candidate are the many archeological artifacts that are found at its base. The mountain is found in a remote place, yet there are man made artifacts that suggest it is Mount Sinai. These include what Williams and Cornuke believed to be the altar of Moses, eleven piles of stones that are found next to the mountain ­ these seem to form “boundary markers, a natural rock formation which has had a Petra style high-place-altar cut in its top and which is surrounded with petroglyphs of Egyptian stylized calves (the altar of the golden calve), and semi-buried marble pillars which have been broken in pieces. There is also a dried brook bed that runs next to the altar and a habitable cave that overlooks the archeological monuments.

What The Scriptures Say:

The record of the Jews, the Torah, meaning the Instruction and the Hebrew Old Testament point to Arabia as the land of Mount Sinai. Although 55% of the modern locations of Biblical place-names are still lost to us, there are several key place-names that have been carried down from antiquity[ii]. One of these is Midian were Mount Sinai was located.

The account of Moses reads:

Moses fled from the face of pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian: and he sat down by a well.

Now the priest of Midian had seven daughters: and they came and drew water, and filled the troughs to water their father’s flock.

And the shepherds came and drove them away: but Moses stood up and helped them, and watered their flock. (Exodus 2:15-17)

There is ample scholarly evidence that Midian was both a town and also a “land” in northwest Arabia. Its western border is the eastern shore of the Gulf of Aqaba. Its capital city, Madyan (Midian), was a major halt of the ancient frankincense trade route from southern Arabia to Egypt, and would have been a good place for Moses to have come upon as he fled along the trail from Egypt to the great desert.[iii] The official name of the town is now al-Bada’a. However, modern Arabic maps of northwest Arabia still show the name of the town as Shu’ayb, the Arabic spelling of Jethro.

The LDS Bible (1979 Edition), Map #6, The Ancient World at the Time of the Patriarchs, agrees with the early Islamic geographers, i.e. Midian, was located in Arabia next to the Gulf of Aqaba. The first Western explorers in the area agreed that the northwest corner of Arabia was Midian (Beke (1834), Burton (1878)[iv], Wallhausen (1886), Sayce (1894), Moore (1895), Shede (1897), Gall (1898), Gunket (1903), Meyer (1906), Schmidt (1908), Gressmann (1913), Haupt (1914) and Musil (1911).[v]

Over a thousand years ago, the early Islamic geographer Al-Hauqal wrote that there was a well in Midian from which Moses watered the flocks of Jethro (Shu’aib). He explained, even then, that the name of the town was derived from the tribe of Jethro.[vi] Writing in the same period, Al-Muqqaddasi wrote “Here may be seen the stone which Moses removed when he gave water to the flocks of Shu’aib. Water here is abundant.”[vii]

Arab geographers place the land of Midian west of the city of Tabuk[viii], which infers that the land Midian only reached a short distance into the interior of Arabia. Tabuk is less than 150 miles east of the Gulf of Aqaba. Abdulla Al-Wohaibi who compiled the writing of the Arab geographers between 900-1100 A.D. noted, “The attention that Madyan [Midian] has always attracted from the Arab geographers is due to the fact that it is mentioned in the Qur’an in connection with the story of the prophet Shu’aib [Jethro].[ix]”

Some try to justify the myth that Mount Sinai was in Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula by suggesting that Midian might have included the Sinai Peninsula during the time of Moses. Biblical scholar James Montgomery dismisses this: “the land west of a line from the Wady of Egypt to the Elanitic Gulf [the Gulf of Aqaba] has always belonged to the Egyptian political sphere, and actually that is the present boundary of Egypt…the South-Arabians called the same region, Msr, i.e. Misraim, Egypt”
  • . The remains of the ancient Egyptian copper mines near St. Catherine’s support the idea that Egypt controlled the Sinai.


Although local traditions can be misleading, the local habitants of Midian (al-Bada’a) have a rich tradition of Moses and his father-in-law Jethro. Besides the traditional name of the town being Jethro, the locals will ready show you the caves of Moses, the wells of Jethro, the wadi Horeb, the wadi Moses, and the Waters of Moses. The renowned Arabia explorer H. St. John Philby wrote on his visit to Midian: “From here my guide and I climbed up the cliffs to visit the ‘circles’ of Jethro on the summit of Musalla ridge, from which we climbed down quite easily to our camp on the far side…A cairn marked the spot where Jethro is supposed to have prayed, and all around it are numerous circles,…from here I had a magnificent view of the whole of Midian mountain range, with Lauz [Jebel al-Lawz] and its sister peaks in the northeast….”[xi]

In Exodus we read of the place where Moses saw the burning bush:

Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.(Exodus 3:1)


Boundary Markers at Arabian Sinai Candidate

As Philby described, the Mount al-Lawz is visible from al-Bada’a (town of Midian) and is to its northeast. The Bible seems to suggest that this is the location of Mount Sinai. First, Moses took Jethro’s flocks there, which implies that the mountain is in the vicinity of Al-Bada’a. Second, since Arabia has long been known as “the desert” or “the wilderness”, its backside would be the interior or east ­ not the shoreline. This would further imply that the burning bush was on the eastside of the mountains, the opposite side of the mountain from the town of al-Bada’a (Midian). Since Jethro’s home in the valley where the major settlements existed was on the west side of the mountain, the backside would be the side of the mountain away from Jethro’s home and the town of Midian.

This describes exactly the location where we found the monuments and petroglyphs. Not only is the mountain northeast of Al-Bada’a, the monuments we found are on the east side of the mountain. The exodus story in the Qur’an appears to supports the notion that the backside of Sinai was indeed the eastward side. Facing the mountain from Jethro’s home, the mount is on the northeast, or one’s right side. The Qur’an states that the Lord appeared to Moses on the “right side” of the mountain. (Qur’an 19:52, see Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s translation, footnote 2601 which implies that the right side was the east side.)

Although these arguments are straight-forward and consistent with the Biblical account, there are still those who hold that Mount Sinai was on the Sinai Peninsula. They argue that there are Biblical accounts of herdsmen taking the flocks to far off lands. “Perhaps”, they argue “Moses took Jethro’s flocks on a long search for food and ended up in the southern region of the Sinai Peninsula.

This seems very unlikely, especially if one realizes that the entire region around the St. Catherine site is unsuitable for grazing. Britain’s governor of the Sinai after World War I, became acquainted with the peninsula during this long tenure there as perhaps no other westerner before him. Writing in ‘Yesterday and Today in Sinai’, C.S. Jarvis asserted that there was no way the Israelite multitudes and their livestock could have traveled through-much less sustained themselves for more than a year-in the “tumbled mass of pure granite” of the southern Sinai. Besides, what would Moses’s reason be for taking Jethro’s flocks out of Arabia and into Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula where the pasture is inferior and Moses was a wanted man? It should be remembered that Egyptian garrisons protected the copper mines near St. Catherine’s mountain.



In distance, Wadi of the Rest (campsite) at St. Catherine’s

n contrast, we have observed large Bedouin camps in and around the mountains of Midian. Historian Abdulla Al-Wohaibi indicates that Midian was “a flourishing ancient town with numerous wells and permanently flowing springs whose water had a good taste. There are farms, gardens and groves of palm trees.[xii]” In ancient times there appears to have been more than enough fodder for sheep in Midian. The Greek Agatharkides of Cnidos wrote of Midian “the country is full of wild camels, as well as of flocks of deer, gazelles, sheep, mules, and oxen”. As a result he also noted that the game “attracts numerous lions, wolves, and panthers”.[1]

If Mount Sinai is in Midian, then where is it? A bluntly naïve thing to do is to just pick up a modern road map and follow it. The most widely used road maps in Arabia are published by Eng. Zaki M.A. Farsi. His map guide to Tabuk[xiii] covers the land of Midian. The modern roadmap shows a trail leading east from the wadi I’fal, about ten miles north of Al-Bada’a. The trail heads directly towards a towering V shaped mountain that towers into the sky. The name of the valley is “wadi Musa”, meaning the valley of Moses. The wadi Moses ends at the western base of the V shaped mountain. On the “backside” or “eastside” of this very peak is where we found the monuments that suggest that it is the real Mount Sinai.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 07:21:19 AM by PeteWaldo »

Peter

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2010, 08:07:06 AM »
Ok Brother Peter What do u say about this???

First of all, no archaeological find has ever contradicted the Bible.  Archaeology has only confirmed what the Bible says.

That's right again! You keep confirming my point!
So what I have to "say about this" is the same as I said before.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1483.msg6063#msg6063

Your latest map, just like your prior map, once again shows that even the revised location of Mt. Sinai ISN'T WITHIN A THOUSAND KILOMETERS OF MECCA!
This once again confirms, that any ridiculous notion that Abraham was ever in Mecca, more than 900 years before the first caravan was ever established along the Red Sea, is derived from nothing more than preposterous 7th and 8th century Mohammedan fiction.
Proving, once again, that Mohammedanism is scripturally, historically, archaeologically and geographically bankrupt!

punisher

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2010, 04:15:25 AM »
Ok Brother Peter What do u say about this???

First of all, no archaeological find has ever contradicted the Bible.  Archaeology has only confirmed what the Bible says.

That's right again! You keep confirming my point!
So what I have to "say about this" is the same as I said before.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1483.msg6063#msg6063

Your latest map, just like your prior map, once again shows that even the revised location of Mt. Sinai ISN'T WITHIN A THOUSAND KILOMETERS OF MECCA!
This once again confirms, that any ridiculous notion that Abraham was ever in Mecca, more than 900 years before the first caravan was ever established along the Red Sea, is derived from nothing more than preposterous 7th and 8th century Mohammedan fiction.
Proving, once again, that Mohammedanism is scripturally, historically, archaeologically and geographically bankrupt!

Ok brother atleast u have agreed that the location of Mt Sanai is changing with the passage of time, due to corruption of Bible

Mark my word this 900 Kilo meter will reach to 0 Kilometer ???

Do u agree or not???

What is this can u please tell me

A few years ago the Mt Sanai is in Egypt and Now it is in Saudia Arabia

what is this???

Peter

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2010, 07:46:28 AM »
Ok Brother Peter What do u say about this???

First of all, no archaeological find has ever contradicted the Bible.  Archaeology has only confirmed what the Bible says.

That's right again! You keep confirming my point!
So what I have to "say about this" is the same as I said before.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1483.msg6063#msg6063

Your latest map, just like your prior map, once again shows that even the revised location of Mt. Sinai ISN'T WITHIN A THOUSAND KILOMETERS OF MECCA!
This once again confirms, that any ridiculous notion that Abraham was ever in Mecca, more than 900 years before the first caravan was ever established along the Red Sea, is derived from nothing more than preposterous 7th and 8th century Mohammedan fiction.
Proving, once again, that Mohammedanism is scripturally, historically, archaeologically and geographically bankrupt!

Ok brother atleast u have agreed that the location of Mt Sanai is changing with the passage of time, due to corruption of Bible

The Bible hasn't changed over those 3,000 years. You yourself claimed that archaeology confirms the bible.
That some men may have reconsidered other men's earlier presumptions regarding it's location is of little consequence. It certainly doesn't change the bible.
And in either location it's still a thousand km from where Mecca was eventually built in the 4th century AD.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.0

Mark my word this 900 Kilo meter will reach to 0 Kilometer ???

Do u agree or not???

Of course not. NOTHING CAN REMOVE THAT PHYSICAL THOUSAND KILOMETER GEOGRAPHICAL MATTER-OF-FACT. And history and archaeology show us that Abraham lived 900 years before the first caravan route was ever established along that 1000 kilometer stretch of harsh Arabian desert.

Look at your ridiculous nonsense in this post http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1483.msg6039#msg6039
For the temple referenced in the Old Testament to be the kaaba would require that all those people were running back and forth A THOUSAND KILOMETERS ACROSS HARSH ARABIAN DESERT on pilgimage from Israel to Mecca, 900 years before anyone else is recorded as having done so.
900 years before wells were dug, and towns established around them, to allow even the remote possibility of it.

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1132.0
Utterly preposterous!

The only way you can remove that 1200 kilometers from between where Abraham actually did live and Mecca, is to pretend that Israel IS Mecca. That the Old Testament is ABOUT Mecca. That the Levites sacrificed the animals in the kaaba.
That the temple that the one true God instructed HIS PEOPLE to build in Jerusalem - in THE Holy Land - did not exist.

What is this can u please tell me

A few years ago the Mt Sanai is in Egypt and Now it is in Saudia Arabia

what is this???

Some men believed that it was in the first presumed location, and some men believe it to be in another presumed location. But only 7th century illiterates - and those that choose to reduce their intellects to that of 7th century illiterates - by rejecting scripture, history, archaeology and geography, could suggest that the history recorded in the Old Testament included people regularly running back and forth the 1000 km between Israel and Mecca, 900 years before the first caravans did, and over 2,000 years before Mecca was ever established!
Because the one true God had His people build His temple IN JERUSALEM!


http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=54.0

The Kaaba in Mecca was built around the early 5th century AD, and was dedicated to idols of star and demon worship as even Islamic history attests.

(3) Narrated Abdullah bin Masud: Allah's Apostle entered Mecca (in the year of the Conquest) and there were three-hundred and sixty idols around the Ka'ba....(34.49)  (Book #60, Hadith #244)

Even to this day one of those very same idols remains at the Kaaba, which is bowed toward by Muslims 5 times a day, and is circumambulated by Muslims the very same way that the Arab pagans circumambulated it.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1050.0
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1079.msg6058#msg6058
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1140.0
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1267.0

Peter

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2010, 10:01:19 PM »
The most important thing in the below posts is where Mohammad thought Mt Sinai is as he actually went there:
Which makes your post an excellent addition to our thread dedicated to the two locations of Mt. Sinai, but a little off subject for the period discussed in this thread as it is a couple thousand years before the 7th century and Mohammed. I moved your post to that thread in the "general discussion" category at this link.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1487.0

punisher

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2010, 02:44:36 AM »
Quote
The Bible hasn't changed over those 3,000 years. You yourself claimed that archaeology confirms the bible.
That some men may have reconsidered other men's earlier presumptions regarding it's location is of little consequence. It certainly doesn't change the bible.
And in either location it's still a thousand km from where Mecca was eventually built in the 4th century AD.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.0


The Bible hasn't changed over those 3000 years,

The name of Bible was Injeel in Hebrew, the whole name is changed and u r saying that Bible hasn't changed over those 3000 years, what  a beauty brother peter, i like that??

what a believe i like that???

Can u please tell me what was original name of Bible???????

I don't know why u r blindly defending the mission of Chirsitian Scholars who are going to hell with so many innocent  people like u

I claim that archaeology has to confirm from Bible, what is the real meaning of my claim,


how archaeology is going to confirm with Bible???????

archaeology only cofirms with Bible if every statement of Bible is in perfect order, but Alas the archaeology has to wait for another 100 year untill the real location of Mt Sanai will confirmed,

Hope after 100 years u will not in this foram, but u will be answering Allah(the God) in the grave for abusing the true Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

and before Allah u know  no internet to search for the question???


Quote
The Kaaba in Mecca was built around the early 5th century AD, and was dedicated to idols of star and demon worship as even Islamic history attests.

(3) Narrated Abdullah bin Masud: Allah's Apostle entered Mecca (in the year of the Conquest) and there were three-hundred and sixty idols around the Ka'ba....(34.49)  (Book #60, Hadith #244)

Even to this day one of those very same idols remains at the Kaaba, which is bowed toward by Muslims 5 times a day, and is circumambulated by Muslims the very same way that the Arab pagans circumambulated it.

The reconstruction was done early 5th century AD. Kabba was First built by Adam and after Adam different constructions were done by the Prophets of Allah.

Yes it's there were three-hundred and sixty idols around the Ka'ba. The people before the arrival of Prophet worship Idols, That's why the filled the House of Allah with Idols, and after the conquest of Makkah the holy prophet break all the idols????.

the kabba is only direction we don't worship kabba, we worship one Allah

and order the people to worship one Allah???
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 02:49:21 AM by punisher »

Phill

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Re: Ishmael, Hagar, Paran & Mecca
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2010, 04:55:30 AM »
Punisher

I posted this on another topic, I hope you find it interesting :)

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1487.0

It appears Mohammad also visited this Mt. Sinai site in the Sinai Penninsula, as obviously he thought that it to was the correct mountain as well (maybe Allah told him so?)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 04:42:41 AM by Peter »