Author Topic: What do Jesus Speaking from the Cradle, and Clay Birds, share?  (Read 9442 times)

Peter

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What do Jesus Speaking from the Cradle, and Clay Birds, share?
« on: January 08, 2010, 11:48:07 AM »
From this website http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/cradle.html

"Here are two Christian fables that Muhammad heard of, and then recited into the Qur'an.

1) JESUS SPEAKING FROM THE CRADLE

    He shall preach to men in his cradle and in the prime of manhood, and shall lead a righteous life.
    Sura 3:46.

Another reference to this is Sura 19:28-34:

    "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot. Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle? He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He has given me the Book and has made me a prophet. And has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive, And (has made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest. Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.

#1 probably came from the Injilu 't Tufuliyyah better known as the Arabic "Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ". It is a 2nd century Arabic apocryphal fable from Egypt. This is the possible source for the referenced verse in the Qur'an. Here is the similar passage from the Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ:

    ... Jesus spake when he was in the cradle, and said to his mother: "Mary, I am Jesus the Son of God, the Word, which thou didst bring forth according to the declaration of the angel Gabriel, and My Father hath sent me for the salvation of the world."[1]

Comparing the two verses, it's another obvious plagiarism of Muhammad's. In #1, Muhammad revised what he had heard, to bring it into accord with his own beliefs and teachings."
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2) JESUS TURNING CLAY BIRDS INTO LIVING BIRDS

    He will say: "I bring you a sign from your Lord. From clay I will make for you the likeness of a bird. I shall breath into it and, by God's leave, it shall become a living bird."
    Sura 3:49

Both of these events, the speaking in the cradle and the birds from clay are mentioned again in Sura 5:110

    When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit, so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and didst blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission; and how thou didst raise the dead by My permission; and how I restrained the Children of Israel from (harming) thee when thou camest unto them with clear proofs, and those of them who disbelieved exclaimed: This is naught else than mere magic;

#2 comes from "The Gospel of Thomas the Israelite" - A known and documented book of fables.

"Here is the similar passage:

    The child Jesus, when 5 years of age, was playing on the road by a dirty stream of running water; and having brought it all together into ditches, immediately made it pure and clean; by saying a single word. Then having moistened some earth, he made of it twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath day when he did these things. There were many other children playing with him. Now a Jew, seeing what Jesus did, that he was playing on the Sabbath day, went his way to (Jesus') father Joseph. He said, "Behold, your son is at the stream of dirty water, and having taken up some mud, has made of it twelve sparrows, thus desecrating the Sabbath. On this Joseph went to the spot, and cried out, "Why did you do these things on the Sabbath day which it is not lawful to do?" Jesus then clapped his hands at the sparrows and cried aloud to them, "Go off!" So they, clucking, flew away. The Jews seeing it were astonished, and went and told their rulers what they had seen Jesus do."[2]

Again, note the similarities. Another Christian fable, another story circulated by the Christians living in the Mideast. And, another fable that made it's way into the Qur'an."

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/cradle.html

Peter

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Re: What do Jesus Speaking from the Cradle, and Clay Birds, share?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2010, 12:34:15 PM »
Our old friend naliakbar, who seems to be relegated to the dark alley of personal messaging these days, for some reason sent me a copy of a chat he was having with someone else. It began
________________________

YOU:
What kind of question is that? Prove Adam was the 1st man?
You mean besides the proof from quran & bible?

ME:
that is my point, you have to use the scripture to answer the question, and the quran which is my scripture tells me that Jesus spoke from the Cradle, so if you have a problem with it i want for you to proove taht Adam was the first man not using your scripture as you are requiring me to do with the case of jesus speaking in the cradle.
__________________________

To which I butted in, since it was sent to me.
I only included my responses below because each response fully quotes naliakbar's PM replies to me with [[[[[   ]]]]]] designations.
Our conversation went
__________________

[[[YOU:
What kind of question is that? Prove Adam was the 1st man?
You mean besides the proof from quran & bible?

ME:
that is my point, you have to use the scripture to answer the question, and the quran which is my scripture tells me that Jesus spoke from the Cradle, ]]]]

Hey Nali! Good to see you out and about my friend. Any time you can muster the courage you are always welcome back in the forum.

Surely by now you know that Mohammed lifted the concept of Jesus speaking from the cradle, from an Arabic apocryphal fable titled "The first Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ".

The interesting thing is, that the words Jesus is credited as speaking as edited by the memory of a 7th century illiterate, is also why Muslims must believe that while Jesus didn't die yet, He will die a normal natural death when He returns. Jesus spends a couple thousand years in heaven and then comes to earth to die! Isn't that comical?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=628.msg2919#msg2919

You know where to find me my friend. Not in dark alleys like this, but in the light of day in the forum. Lots of new content. Please join us.
Thanks for the reminder of this subject, it will make a good addition to our "Quran and Hadith" section.
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[[[Hey,
no problem, but i see you have a hard time with comprehension.

jesus is qouted to have said:

019.033
YUSUFALI: "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

THE DAY THAT I DIE... not the day that i DIED.

so obviuosly you need to work on your comprehension skills. ]]]]

Don't be silly. Why would anybody suggest that Jesus, as an infant in a cradle, would be saying He already died, in the past tense?
Whose got comprehension difficulty?
____________________

[[[[YOU:
Don't be silly. Why would anybody suggest that Jesus, as an infant in a cradle, would be saying He already died, in the past tense?
Whose got comprehension difficulty?


ME:
admittly in rushing through your email misread what you said, but my last point to the email still stands, and that is do you deny that god can take jesus up to heaven for a billion years if he so pleases and then return him on earth to die?]]]]]

You seem to have missed the point and now replace it with an absurd notion. How many folks have gone to heaven only to return to earth and die? It is certainly something we have learned to expect of Mohammed's phony "schemer" god, but certainly not of a good God.
Here's a quote from the fable of which Mohammed lifted his sura

"... Jesus spake when he was in the cradle, and said to his mother: "Mary, I am Jesus the Son of God, the Word, which thou didst bring forth according to the declaration of the angel Gabriel....""

But because Mohammed had to change it to fit his home made religion, and goofed up so badly on his version of this fable, that Muslims are compelled to actually believe Jesus will return and then die. Solely because of Mohammed's one goofy plagiarized verse.

Christians of course understand that the WHOLE GOSPEL IS ABOUT the new covenant (New Testament) that brought Gentiles like you and I into God's plan of salvation through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, by His death and resurrection. We understand that Jesus already did die and was resurrected, before ascending to heaven.
_______________

[[[[YOU:
You seem to have missed the point and now replace it with an absurd notion. How many folks have gone to heaven only to return to earth and die? It is certainly something we have learned to expect of Mohammed's phony "schemer" god, but certainly not of a good God.


ME:
do you see how corrupted your mind is, you believe god can come on earth and die, but you dont believe if he so chooses he can take a person to heaven and return them to earth to die.

and then you will tell me i limit god please check what you believe before you talk]]]]

I believe what I do because that is the way that God chose to reveal Himself to us over His 1600 year record through ALL of the prophets and witnesses, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years.

Additionally, you misunderstand the Gospel, but more likely never read it, or you would know that nobody believes that God died. Though you could never receive a full understanding of the things of the Spirit of God as a natural man. You have to approach God with a contrite heart and sincerely ask Him to show you.

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Being filled with the spirit of antichrist won't help you.

God manifest, or revealed, Himself to us through the flesh a perfect man, Jesus Christ, who He had conceived by a virgin. Through Christ God provided the perfect and sinless example for all mankind, and thus the perfect sacrifice. The Lamb of God. Old Testament or new, propitiation for sin has come from blood sacrifice because that's the way God revealed Himself to us. Abraham had spoken of that Lamb, and Jesus crucifixion was prophesied in the Old Testament just as it happened, many hundreds of years before Jesus was made manifest.

Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

You reject that 1600 year record of God to mankind through ALL of the prophets and witnesses, to follow the STAND-ALONE 23 year 7th century record, of A SINGLE man, that is revealed as a murdering, prisoner raping, child doing, pillaging, plundering, stepson's wife stealing, thief, who even cut himself in for 1/5 of the property stolen from others, just like a Mafia Don.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=608.0

Whose book, as we have discovered not only reveals that Mohammed was inspired by Arabic fables,
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=893.0

but also by Mohammed's good X-"Christian" friend Jabr, his tri-lingual Jewish secretary and various formerly Christian connected concubines and such. So often did Mohammed get a "revelation" after a long session with Jabr, that the local nickname for Jabr became "holy spirit"! Mohammed even had to recite a special sura in a feeble attempt at damage control (16.103)
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=452.0

Indeed Mohammed's recitations were left in such a mess that a whopping 71 out of only 114 suras are subject to abrogation. You know, "naskh".
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=452.0
_____________________________________

Pete note - the Quran passage inspired by this fable suggestion of Jesus speaking from the cradle is

Sura 19:28 "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" 29 But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" 30 He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; 31 "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; 32 "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; 33 "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!


That Muslims have to believe Jesus will return in the future, only to die, is confirmed through their own testimonies.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=628.msg2919#msg2919

Indeed when Muslims are asked who did die on the cross, the entire group can be described as "..... full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow....."
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=628.0

Peter

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Re: What do Jesus Speaking from the Cradle, and Clay Birds, share?
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2010, 07:48:33 AM »
"What do Jesus Speaking from the Cradle, and Clay Birds, share?"

The same thing that the sun setting in mud....

"Because the inhabitants were recent emigrants from Yemen, Asa'd Abu Karb built them a modest temple in the Yemeni style. He did this to connect the people with himself. He also wrote a poem in which he described the sun setting in a spring of black mud, something Mohammed included in the Qur'an."

and the legend of the hoopoe bird have in common.....

"He learned the Jewish myths, such as the legend of the hoopoe bird  that announced the kingdom of Saba to Solomon. This myth came from the Jewish mythological book called the Second Targum of Esther. Mohammed incorporated the same myth into the Qur'an."

They all come from fables.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1079.0

Peter

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Re: What do Jesus Speaking from the Cradle, and Clay Birds, share?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2010, 03:20:46 PM »
"Abu Karb Asa'd, also called Tubb'a, occupied the cities of central western Arabia at the beginning of the 5th century A.D. Among those cities were Mecca and Yatrib, also called al-Medina."

"The inhabitants of Mecca had emigrated from two Yemeni tribes, Oas and Khazraj. They too, emigrated to Yathrib after the dam in Yemen was damaged around 150 A.D. These tribes were living with two Jewish tribes, Beni Kharithah and Beni Nathir, which were already established. Abu Karb Asa'd was of Yemeni origin. He built the kaabeh at Mecca to reinforce his rule over the city, and to show favor to the citizens of mecca who were without a temple of worship. They, like him, shared the same pagan beliefs.'

"Tubb'a also tried to build bridges with the Jewish community in Yathrib. He learned their religious thoughts and rites. He learned the Jewish myths, such as the legend of the hoopoe bird that announced the kingdom of Saba to Solomon. This myth came from the Jewish mythological book called the Second Targum of Esther. Mohammed incorporated the same myth into the Qur'an."

Peter

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Re: What do Jesus Speaking from the Cradle, and Clay Birds, share?
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2010, 12:27:14 AM »
and let's not forget the flying abaabeel's and their conquest of an army
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1601.0

and Alexander the Great
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1586.0

Peter

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Re: What do Jesus Speaking from the Cradle, and Clay Birds, share?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2010, 03:27:05 PM »
Wowie. Just when you were beginning to conclude that Mohammed's religion, was little more than 7th century illiterate desert dweller superstition, along comes something like this.
Muslims actually believe that Mohammed performed a miracle by splitting the moon in two.

Never mind that Mohammed himself claimed that he would perform no miracles.
Just as Mohammed called anybody that traced his genealogy back further than al-Nather bin Kinaneh a liar, so his busy little 8th century Islamic history and tradition creators went contrary to Mohammed's words again, pretending that he actually, literally, split the moon in two. Perhaps they felt short-changed with a "prophet" that never had a fulfilled prophecy, as well as one that had never performed a single miracle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_of_the_moon

MTLbobiras

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Re: What do Jesus Speaking from the Cradle, and Clay Birds, share?
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2011, 12:30:01 AM »
I believe those comments he borrowed from syrian-egyptian agnostic christains, that put all that make believe sauce in the original manuscript, Once again anothe deceipt from satan, divide and conquer, Splits all the Christians, then ISLAM comes along with no verification or anyproof of anysort, claims these are genuine and were "revealed" since there in the quran? 


Peter

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Re: What do Jesus Speaking from the Cradle, and Clay Birds, share?
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2011, 01:04:31 PM »
Here's a funny one. The Muslims left a grave available next to their antichrist false prophet Muhammad, for Jesus Christ. While Muslims believe that Jesus never died, they are compelled to believe that He will die after He returns, because of the goofy Egyptian apocryphal fable Muhammad plagiarized, in which Jesus supposedly spoke from the cradle  and said "Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die..." (in the OP).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_founders_of_world_religions#Islam

Islam

The Islamic prophet Muhammad is buried in the Al-Masjid al-Nabawi (Mosque of the Prophet) in the city of Medina in Saudi Arabia.

Muhammad's grave lies within the confines of what used to be his wife Aisha's and his house. During his lifetime it was adjoining the mosque. The mosque was expanded during the reign of Caliph al-Walid I to include his tomb.[1]. The prophet's grave is an important reason for the particularly high sanctity of the mosque. Millions of visitors come to visit it every year because it is tradition to visit mosque when going on the pilgrimage to Mecca .

Muhammad is buried next to the first two caliphs, Abu Bakr and Umar. Umar was gifted a spot next to Muhammad by his wife Ayesha, which had originally been intended for her. There is an empty grave within the tomb area meant for Jesus upon his return as the Messiah.

Muhammad's grave itself cannot be seen as the area is cordoned off by a gold mesh and black curtains. As per Wahhabi tradition, the grave itself is not embellished or decorated and is two cubits high. The grave is marked by an austere green wooden dome above it, built by the Ottoman Turks. This dome has become universally emblematic of both the Muhammad himself, as well as his beloved city of Medina.
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Notice "upon his return as the Messiah." What was He when He was with us on earth? Not the Messiah!?
Blasphemy all around. They have to believe that an immortal person will die! I feel so sorry for them so lost in their confusion.