Author Topic: Progressive Revelation  (Read 9990 times)

Peter

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Progressive Revelation
« on: January 26, 2010, 08:38:23 AM »
Progressive Revelation of the Quran - well understood by Islamic scholars

Islamic scholars understand the record of Mohammed's inspiration to be progressive. That is, that "Allah" revealed himself to Mohammed "in stages". No Muslim can deny this since Mohammed himself declared it.

Surah 16:101 When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=116.0

Thus the revelation of the later stages abrogate the revelation of the earlier stages. Mohammed declared it because even he knew the self-contradicting nature of his revelations as frequently pointed out by those around him. Today, in order to rectify the contradictions in Mohammed's record, Islamic scholars are necessarily compelled to understand Mohammed's as a progressive revelation, requiring that the later more violent post-Medina suras abrogate, or replace, earlier more peaceful suras that he recited before he left Mecca for Medina. Indeed so important was Mohammed's switch from peaceful to violent against non-Muslims, that the Islamic calendar begins at this split-personality switch. But it is obvious that a record of a single man, whose contradictory "revelations", that changed so radically over the course of just 23 years, suggests not divine inspiration, but rather the changing whims of it's author. Either that or one is stuck believing that Mohammed's Allah was simply that confused.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=452.0

Even Mohammed knew what a mess he made of his record, as he himself stated that the later surahs are "better" "substitutes" for his earlier "revelations".

Quran 2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

He even knew how he would be perceived by those not brainwashed into Islam.

Progressive Revelation of Scripture

The God of the Jews and Christians revealed Himself to mankind, through a record written by His prophets, witnesses and Apostles, that spans a period of 1600 years, that His people have followed for 3500 years. That revelation is contained in what we know today as the Old and New Testaments, that describe two covenants. The record starts at the very beginnings of mankind, and follows our progression from when we were little more than desert dwelling nomads, to fairly sophisticated first century societies.
God did not change over that 1600 years, but rather mankind did and thus, the way God chose to manifest, or reveal, Himself to us over that period.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=97.0

Early in this record we find accounts of wars and violence between peoples. Some of this violence was ordered by God Himself, against the enemies of His chosen people, and some of the accounts are simply historical record of events, that do not imply God's tacit approval one way or another. God's chosen people repeatedly wandered off into disobedience, and were repeatedly punished for it. Others that were not chosen were also punished for things as heinous as the sacrifice of children to idols.

Deuteronomy 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

It is important to understand that all of the innocent people that were killed, over all time, are with the Lord today. Indeed perhaps many innocents were killed, before they had a chance to become disobedient, and then suffer the eternal consequences of their actions.

From Secrets of the Koran, by Don Richardson
"By Mohammed's day, 1,500 years had passed since any Hebrew prophet was described in the Old Testament as using a sword in the service of God. Neither Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Micah, Amos, Malachi nor any other later Hebrew prophet is described as using the sword or prescribing its use."

And of course the Gospel - that is the new covenant and the Good News of Jesus Christ - is revealed throughout as being the exact opposite of suggestion of violence against others - the exact opposite of Mohammed's "revelations".

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Yet Mohammed is revealed through his own record as being perhaps the most consummate terrorist in human history.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=856.0
Those Muslims that are murdering innocent men, women and children, around the world today, and throughout the last 1400 years, are simply following in Mohammed's footsteps.

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=731.0

Folks whose hearts hate God, and who hate Christians and Jews, love to remove verses from the context of the Old Testament, with no interest whatsoever in understanding. They then use a verse that depicts violence, in a desperate effort to find some kind of justification, for 7th century Mohammed's reprobate behavior. Not only are they applying a 21st century understanding to events detailed, but they are judging through Gentile eyes, regarding the way God revealed Himself to His chosen people, the Jews.
For example, it is pretty difficult for us to imagine men building a temple, with the focus being an alter on which to sacrifice animals as sin offerings, but this is a scriptural and historical reality, that cannot be ignored. God gave the Jews specific instructions regarding the tabernacle building and animal sacrifice.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=54.0

Some that hate love, and have been trained to follow a violent 7th century false prophet, pull verses out of context, of specific events of 3,000 years ago and more, in order to find some sort of parallel to justify the violent and reprobate behavior of Mohammed. But even going back that far, there is no account, or prophet, whose actions are recorded as possessing the purely reprobate nature of Mohammed's, as revealed through Islam's own books.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=336.0
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=456.0

What we see in these people is outright rejection of the Gospel, as though Jesus Christ and his new covenant witnesses never existed, while being inspired by a love of hate for Jews, and non-Muslims in general. Yet at the same time, they have actually been brainwashed into believing that they have some sort of warped "respect" for Jesus.

For 1400 years, when candid conversations regarding Mohammed's nature, expose him through Islam's own books, shouts of "You are insulting our prophet" ensue, in order to silence the person revealing the truth, rather than facing the truth. The spirit that causes rejection of the Son of God and His love for us, and the hundreds of verses that describe the relationship between the Father and Son is specifically detailed in scripture, including the consequences for those who do so.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.    

1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
                           
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
                     
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Muslims actually suggest that somehow the Gospel became corrupted, or was changed, but in order to conform to Mohammed's historically impossible, and thoroughly reprobate record, the Gospel would have had to become the exact opposite of the entirety of it's contents!
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=148.0

These claims of bible corruption don't even wash in the light of Mohammed's book.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=372.0

Comparison

As we see mankind changing over the course of the 1600 year record God gave us, we see God's love for us increasingly revealed, culminating in His final manifestation as a truly loving God through the Gospel, who manifest Himself to save us from dying to sin, and detailed the close and personal relationship we can enjoy directly with Him.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?board=55.0

Islam - always the opposite - went from Mohammed's first 13 years where he preached a more peaceful message, but was barely able to win a hundred converts over those early years. Then he picked up the sword. So the progressive revelation of Mohammed's "Allah" reveals "stages" of a progression that went from peaceful, to bloodthirsty and violent, culminating in later revelations that call his followers to hatred and violence against non-Muslims - and particularly Jews - as increasingly expressed later through the Quran, and still later through the hadith. The post-Medina revelations, are of Mohammed's "Allah" ordering his people to fight the unbeliever, and to smite the unbeliever at the neck. To engage in imperialistic conquest and subjugation of the whole world to Mohammed's antichrist religion through jihad. And of course history reveals that this is exactly what the Muslims did during the Islamic First Jihad. Even the Islamic calendar begins at this switch from peaceful to violence and imperialistic conquest.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?board=52.0

Peter

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Re: Progressive Revelation
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2010, 08:26:20 AM »
 http://www.answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/contra.html

CONTRADICTIONS WITHIN THE QURAN

      "Do they not consider the Quran? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancies." (Sura 4:82).

This verse is further amplified by the already quoted texts:

      "No change can there be in the Words of Allah (Sura 10:64)
      "There is none that can alter the Words of Allah (Sura 6:34)

We Christians believe this too. Let us assume for a moment that there is no discrepancy between the message of the Bible and the Quran, which, as we have seen, is not the case, and consider the Quran on its own.

The problem of abrogation.

      "When We substitute one revelation for another, - and Allah knows best what He reveals, - they say 'Thou art a forger: But most of them understand not. Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth."

      "None of our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar--Knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?....Would you question your Apostle as Moses was questioned of old?" (Suras 16:101 and 2:106,108).

We should like to find out how a divine revelation can be improved. We would have expected it to have been perfect and true right from the start. Yusuf Ali tries to explain:

      "....it means that God's message from age to age is always the same, but that its form may differ according to the needs and exigencies of the time. Some commentators apply it also to the Ayat (revelation) of the Quran. There is nothing derogatory in this if we believe in progressive revelation.
      In Sura 3:7 we are told distinctly about the Quran, that some of its verses are basic and fundamental, and others are allegorical, and it is mischievous to treat the allegorical verses and follow them (literally)." (comm 107).

This is fully acceptable. God has revealed His Word progressively, the revelation being levelled at the comprehension and culture of the people to whom it was first given. Everybody will agree that an allegory should not be taken literally. But what about the law of 'mansukh' (=abrogated verse; please note Sura 2:106 does not speak of intellect, culture or progressive revelation with reference to scriptures given prior to Mohammed, but to Quranic verses only!) and 'nasikh' (=the verses that take the place of the mansukh verses)? .

We must recognize one important principle: If we want to know what a certain passage really means we have to make a proper exegesis. We have to establish what exactly the text in question was intended to say to the original hearers. How did they understand it? Only having done that can we interpret a text in today's situation without distortion. There are various possible ways of establishing the original meaning, but one should also look at the very old commentaries and see how they understood and interpreted the text.

The "Tafsir-i-Azizi" explains three kinds of abrogations (=cancellations):

i) where a verse has been removed from the Quran and another given in its place;

ii) where the injunction (command) is abrogated and the letters of the verse remain; !

iii) where both the verse and its injunction are removed from the text

Jalalu'd-Din, says that the number of abrogated verses has been variously estimated to range from 5 to 500 ("Dictionary of Islam", page 520)

In his 'Itqan' he furnished a list of 20 verses, which are acknowledged by all commentators to be abrogated ("Dictionary of Islam", page 520).

Just a few be mentioned here:

      The Qibla (prayer direction) was changed from Jerusalem to Mecca (Sura 2:142-144);

      The division of inheritance left by parents or other relatives according to Sura 4:7 had to be equal (a share and a share which has to be determined). This was abrogated and replaced by verse 11, where it is commanded that males must get double the share of females.

      The night prayer performed by reciting the Quran ought to be more or less half the time of the night (Sura 73:2). This was changed to as much as may be easy for you (verse 20).

      The treatment of adulteresses is to be life imprisonment (Sura 4:15), which was changed to flogging with 100 strokes (Sura 24:2). This despite the leniency prescribed for homosexuals (Sura 4:16) on repenting.

      The retaliation in cases of crime, particularly murder, was to be confined to people of equal rank (slave for slave, free for free etc.) (Sura 2:178) This is in disagreement with Sura 5:48 and Sura 17:33 where retaliation is allowed against the murderer only.

      The Jihad or Holy War was forbidden in the sacred months (Sura 9:5) but is allowed, even encouraged in verse 36 which replaces the former.

      "Sura 2:106 occurs immediately before a series of sweeping changes, or rather modifications, introduced by Muhammad in both the ritual and the legal spheres.The verse thus precedes a change in the Qibla (vss. 115,177,124-151); in the pilgrimage rites (vs. 158); in the dietary laws (vss. 168-l74); in the law relating to talio (vss. 178-179); in bequests (vss. 180-182); in the fast (vss. 182-187); and again in the pilgrimage (vss. 191-203).

      Similarly, Sura 16:101 is followed by allusions to modifications in the dietary laws (vss 114-119), and in the Sabbath laws (vs.124)" ("The Collection of the Quran" by John Burton).

      Elaborating on this we note that the fast is compulsory "but if any of you is ill or on a journey, the prescribed number (should be made up) from days later. For those who can do it (with hardship) is a ransom, the feeding of one, that is indigent." (Sura 2:184).

      "'Here one can hardly escape the conclusion that the first verse (i.e. 184) allows a rich man to buy himself out of the fast." ("Islam" by A. Guillaume). The next verse is said to replace the former. It allows no compensation of any kind for the fast.

      In verse 180 of the same Sura "it is prescribed, when death approaches any of you, if he leaves any goods, that he make a bequest to parents and next of kin....". This is said to be replaced by Sura 4:11, according to which a double portion of inheritance falls to males compared to that of females.

      The much discussed "verses of the sword": "....fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them, beleaguer them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (or war)." (Sura 9:5) and "....when you meet the unbelievers (in fight) cut off their necks..." (Sura 47:4) are "said to have cancelled no less than 124 verses which enjoined toleration and patience." (A. Guillaume).

To us it is surprising to find the mansukh and nasikh verses often near to each other. We judge these to be cases of interpolation.

As stated earlier, we do believe in progressive revelation. The Old Covenant of the Law, as given to Moses, was superseded by the New Covenant of grace, which Jesus introduced. But these developments took place over a considerable time (1 500 years) with many prophetic warnings and predictions in between, so that no arbitrary action may be assumed on the side of God. In the light of this we find it unacceptable that within a space of 20 years a need for change or correction can become necessary. This surely suggests that God is either not all-knowing or else the recorder made a correction.

There are other verses which further add to the confusion:

      "If we wished, we could make away with what we have revealed to you!" (Sura 17:86). "We shall teach you to recite it (i.e. the Quran) and you will not forget - except that Allah wills (Sura 87:6-7).

Why should anything be forgotten of an eternal revelation? To "substitute for it something better"? We do admit that an inspired man can err at times, but an inspired book (nazil) cannot!

Zarkasi explains the above concept more deeply. He states (vol. I p. 235):

      "The 'naskh' (sic) of the wording and recital occured by means of God's causing them to forget it. He withdrew it from their memories, while commanding them to neglect its public recital and its recording in the mushaf. With the passage of time, it would quite disappear like the rest of God's revealed Books which He mentions in the Quran, but nothing of which is known today. This can have happened either during the Prophet's life so that, when he died, the forgotten material was no longer being recited as part of the Quran; or it might have happened after the death of the Prophet. It would still be extant in writing, but God would cause them to forget it. He would then remove it from their memories. But, of course, the naskh of any part of the revelation after the death of the Prophet is not possible." ("The Collection of the Quran" by John Burton p.97).

We suggest that Allah could have spared us a lot of confusion, doubt and explaining, had He given the better text right from the beginning.

      "There was a series of Hadiths designed expressly to give the impression that Muhammad had forgotten part of the revelations. The reports were specific and detailed enough to identify the actual wording of the verses in question. Anas is reported in the two Sahih's (i.e. al-Bukhari and Muslim) as declaring: There was revealed concerning those slain at Bi'r Ma'una a Quran verse which we recited until it was withdrawn: "Inform our tribe on our behalf that we have met our Lord. He has been well pleased with us and has satisfied our desires.' ("al-Itqan by Jalal al Din).

      'Abdullah b. al Zubair therefore asked 'Uthman what had possessed him to include Sura 2:240 in the 'mushaf' (document or canon), when he knew it to have been abrogated by Sura 2:234. 'Because', he replied 'Uthman, 'I know it to be part of the Quran text.' '(ibid.). ("The Collection of the Quran" by John Burton).

A further problem arises from the fact that there is by no means any certainty which verses are mansukh and which nasikh, since the order in which the Quran was written down is not chronological, but according to the length of the Suras. However, even the Suras were not necessarily given in one piece. It happened that a certain portion of a Sura was given, and the next given text would be directed by Mohammed to be added to another Sura, and later again another addition was made to the first again, etc. The Hadis gives no conclusive information about the chronological order either, so that strictly speaking, there is no means of determining which of two disagreeing texts is mansukh, and which nasikh.

In any case we Christians see in this whole subject just a theological gimmick to "explain" contradictions. The quotation:

      "No change can there be in the Words of Allah" and "There is none that can alter the Words of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those Apostles." or "the other Apostles also said so." (Suras 10:64 and 6:34).

is contradicted by all those Muslims who claim that the Bible which is admitted to be a revealed book, has been altered and corrupted.

To underline our point let us just look at two passages of the Quran that have not been reconciled in terms of the law of abrogation.

In Sura 41:9-12 we read that the world was created in eight days, in Sura 7:54 we are told it were six days. It is, we suppose, up to the believer to make up his mind which of the two he will accept.

QUESTION: Must we assume that God is inconsistent? Knowing all things, such contradiction surely does not originate from God?

Problems regarding the consistency of Revelation.

The Quran is inconsistent regarding commitments on the part of Allah on which the believer can reckon or on which he can build his life. Commitments that are given are contradicted elsewhere:

      "Allah has inscribed for himself (the rule of) mercy"

or

      "Allah has prescribed for himself as law to act merciful" (Sura 6:12).

is contradicted in the same Sura: (verses 35-39):

      "If it were Allah's will, he would gather them into true guidance.... Whom Allah willeth he leaves to wander, whom he willeth, he placeth on the way that is straight".

As we shall see (pp 21ff.), the Muslim's hope rests on that despairing word:

      "IF it pleases Allah."

This is striking, for even in the Old Testament the believer was aware of the Law of cause and Effect. Once a believer broke any of God's Laws he was cut-off from God, and was lost and perishing. But if he atoned therefor in repentance according to God's prescribed ordinance (the sacrifice) his sin was forgiven. God had committed Himself to it. This is even further elaborated in the New Testament:

      "If we confess our sins (while we have fellowship with God: vs. 6), He is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (I John 1:9).

We see a definite regression from this standard in the Quran.

We also find it strange to read:

      "Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, 'we are Christians'." (Sura 5:85)

This is supported to some extent by an explanatory note in the "Mishkat" (IV page 103, note 2380) where we are told that "nearly two-thirds of paradise" will be filled with "the followers of the Holy Prophet and the followers of other prophets will form one-third." In strange contrast to this are the words of Sura 5:51

      "Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends."

What about being together in Paradise? The reason is just as strange:

      "They (Jews and Christians) are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

It can hardly be said that Jews and Christians have ever protected each other, except that they agree on the authenticity of the Old Testament.

It is said of Mohammed that he was the first to bow down to Allah (in Islam) (Sura 6:14, 163, 39:12). But it is also said of Abraham, his sons and Jacob that they were Muslims (Sura 2:132), and of all earlier prophets who brought 'books' (i.e. Moses, David and Jesus) (Sura 28:52-53). Again it is reported of the disciples of Jesus that they were Muslims (Sura 3:52).

All these we view as contradictions. Some would not be of a serious nature, were it not for the claim that the Quran is "nazil" or "brought down" from heaven to Mohammed without the touch of human hand - except for the act of writing itself.

QUESTION: Is there any uncontradicted statement in the Quran on which a Mulsim can rely to have eternal life in heaven?

http://www.answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/contra.html

punisher

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2010, 02:13:19 AM »


But it has nothing to do with Christianity. Show me where it is suggested in the Gospel. If you cannot then by falsely calling it Christian behavior you are exposed as nothing more than a liar for Satan.

What you have shown is of the world, and Christians are specifically not of this world.

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

The kingdoms of this world, from which your images come, are Satan's kingdoms. That's why Mohammedan Islam has lusted after Satan's kingdoms for 1400 years. Because Islam is of Satan - Satan's followers through the false prophet Mohammed.

Hey, but then what could show more "respect" for women, than raping them after slaughtering their fathers, husbands and sons?

Bukhari:V5B59N459 "I entered the Mosque, saw Abu, sat beside him and asked about sex. Abu Said said, 'We went out with Allah's Apostle and we received female slaves from among the captives. We desired women and we loved to do coitus interruptus.'"
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1263.msg5864#msg5864

Rape of prisoners as specifically condoned by Mohammed's phony god "Allah".
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=456.0


In not a single aspect are women respected in Islam. From being treated as chattel by being assigned to some creep for life - because their father wanted it - at pain of death through an "honor" killing if they don't comply.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?board=54.0

To a 7th century illiterate that himself was too mentally challenged to learn how to read, actually calling women, "deficient in intelligence". Indeed even slaughtering a literate female poet who wrote poetry about Mohammed's ridiculous pseudo-religious sham.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=127.0

Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
    ... "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, ".... I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you."... The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence."

Your taqiyyah won't fly here my friend, as also shown in the original post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V22qDQqMPL0

Sura 2:223 your wives are as tilth (farmland) unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/women_in_islam.htm

ok brother Let see

Muhammad the Womanizer?

[/b]Many anti-Islamics give this false claim against our beloved Prophet peace be upon him.   Below is a Noble Verse and its description that insha'Allah (if GOD is willing) will shed some light regarding this issue.  This Noble Verse is used a lot by the anti-Islamics to try to prove that Muhammad peace be upon him was a womanizer.

"Thou mayest defer (the turn of) any of them that thou pleasest, and thou mayest receive any thou pleasest: and there is no blame on thee if thou invite one whose (turn) thou hadst set aside. This were nigher to the cooling of their eyes, the prevention of their grief, and their satisfaction - that of all of them - with that which thou hast to give them: and God knows (all) that is in your hearts: and God is All-Knowing, Most Forbearing. (The Noble Quran, 33:51)"

The following Saying is a description for the Noble Verse:

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: "I felt jealous of the women who offered themselves to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Then when Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, revealed this: 'You may defer any one of them you wish, and take to yourself any you wish; and if you desire any you have set aside (no sin is chargeable to you)' (xxxiii. 51), I ('Aisha.) said: It seems to me that your Lord hastens to satisfy your desire.  (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3453)"

As we clearly see from the Noble Verse and the Narration of our beloved Prophet's wife, Aisha, may Allah Almighty be pleased with her, our Prophet did not seek women.  They used to come to offer themselves to him for marriage. Allah Almighty wanted to make it more comfortable for our Prophet by allowing him to choose only the ones that he desired for marriage.

But the point of our Prophet peace be upon him seeking women and divorcing women as he pleased for his own sexual desire is a complete hoax.

Another false criticism against our beloved Prophet peace be upon him is in this narration:

Narrated 'Abdul 'Aziz: "Anas said, 'When Allah's Apostle invaded Khaibar, we offered the Fajr prayer there yearly in the morning) when it was still dark. The Prophet rode and Abu Talha rode too and I was riding behind Abu Talha. The Prophet passed through the lane of Khaibar quickly and my knee was touching the thigh of the Prophet . He uncovered his thigh and I saw the whiteness of the thigh of the Prophet. When he entered the town, he said, 'Allahu Akbar! Khaibar is ruined.  Whenever we approach near a (hostile) nation (to fight) then evil will be the morning of those who have been warned.' He repeated this thrice. The people came out for their jobs and some of them said, 'Muhammad (has come).' (Some of our companions added, "With his army.") We conquered Khaibar, took the captives, and the booty was collected. Dihya came and said, 'O Allah's Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.' The Prophet said, 'Go and take any slave girl.' He took Safiya bint Huyai. A man came to the Prophet and said, 'O Allah's Apostles! You gave Safiya bint Huyai to Dihya and she is the chief mistress of the tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir and she befits none but you.' So the Prophet said, 'Bring him along with her.' So Dihya came with her and when the Prophet saw her, he said to Dihya, 'Take any slave girl other than her from the captives.' Anas added: The Prophet then manumitted her and married her."

Thabit asked Anas, "O Abu Hamza! What did the Prophet pay her (as Mahr)?" He said, "Her self was her Mahr for he manumitted her and then married her." Anas added, "While on the way, Um Sulaim dressed her for marriage (ceremony) and at night she sent her as a bride to the Prophet . So the Prophet was a bridegroom and he said, 'Whoever has anything (food) should bring it.' He spread out a leather sheet (for the food) and some brought dates and others cooking butter. (I think he (Anas) mentioned As-SawTq). So they prepared a dish of Hais (a kind of meal). And that was Walrma (the marriage banquet) of Allah's Apostle."
(Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Prayers (Salat), Volume 1, Book 8, Number 367)"

In this narration, we clearly see that our beloved Prophet peace be upon him:

1- Had the opportunity to keep the woman, Safiya bint Huyai, as a slave, but instead, he honored her, manumitted her, and married her, and she became his honorable wife instead of his slave.

2- Safiya bint Huyai was chief mistress of the tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir.

Where do you see our beloved Prophet peace be upon him being a womanizer here?


 What about the Bible's Prophets' marriages?


When we read the Bible, we learn about some Prophets marrying many wives, even hundreds of wives in some cases.  Let us look at some of the verses from the Old Testament:

In Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry.

In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.

In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.

And knowing that the Bible's Old Testament allowed before for men to have sex with girls who were at the age of 3, then it wouldn't surprise me that those Prophets who had 700 wives for instance, had many very young teenage girls before as their wives.



What about the X-Rated Pornography in the Bible?

When we read the Bible, we learn about some weird pornographic teachings that are certainly not appropriate for anyone with morals to read.  You will read for instance, about Solomon's wife's vagina tastes like wine for him!

You will also see examples of Prophets sleeping with their neighbor's wives, such as the following:

David watches a women bathe, likes what he sees, and "goes in unto her."    Let us look at 2 Samuel 11:2-4  "One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, 'Isn't this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite?'  Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (She had purified herself from her uncleanness.) Then she went back home."  This Holy Figure in the Bible is a pervert!.

So what happened to "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.  (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 20:10)"????

How come Leviticus 20:10 was compromised in the Bible and was never applied to King David?!   Didn't King David know about this law?  Yet, the Jews use his star as their holy symbol; the David Star, and the Christians call Jesus his son; "Son of David".

It seems to me quite clearly that the Bible is nothing but a compromised corrupted Book as Jeremiah 8:8, 2 Samuel 11:2-4 and Leviticus 20:10 suggest.

If the strong eats the weak in the Bible, then what moral and wisdom are we to learn from this book?

The Bible's treatment of captive women is far worse than Islam's:

Exodus 21
Fair Treatment of Slaves
1 These are the regulations you must present to Israel.
2 -If you buy a Hebrew slave, he may serve for no more than six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom.
3 If he was single when he became your slave, he shall leave single. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife must be freed with him.
4 -If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave and they had sons or daughters, then only the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master.
5 But the slave may declare, "I love my master, my wife, and my children. I don't want to go free."
6 If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door or doorpost and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will serve his master for life.
7 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.
8 If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.
9 But if the slave's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave but as a daughter.
...............
20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished,
21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

So what do we see here:

1-  The man owns the slave, and even owns his wife and children if the slave got married while he was a slave.

2-  A slave is a property.  This means that a master could have sex with a slave.

3-  If the slaves wishes to leave, then he must leave his wife and children to his master.  Otherwise, he will have to become a slave for the rest of his life.

4-  A man can sell his daughter as a slave-girl.

5-  Certainly, the master in all of the cases can sleep with the woman (the wife of the slave, or the daughter who was sold), and the daughters.
#

This is further proven in the verses of the Bible that allow for masters to sleep with their slaves and have children from them, such as Abraham and Hagar having Ishmael.
 
#

Also again, the Bible makes it clear that the slave is the master's property:
  
Exodus 21
21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
[/color]  
#

For many years, I've heard many christians declare Islam to be false because Allah Almighty allowed for the Muslim men to sleep with their slave women, even if those women were married to infidels.  Yet, we virtually find worse things in their gospel of porn, the book of women's vaginas and breasts taste like "wine", and the book that sings praises about sisters lusting after their brothers, because the Bible allows for the Jewish master to sleep with his Jewish slave's wife and daughters!  Amazing indeed!

  

More from Genesis 20:

Genesis 20
Abraham and Abimelech
1 Now Abraham moved on from there into the region of the Negev and lived between Kadesh and Shur. For a while he stayed in Gerar,
2 and there Abraham said of his wife Sarah, "She is my sister." Then Abimelech king of Gerar sent for Sarah and took her.
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream one night and said to him, "You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken; she is a married woman."
4 Now Abimelech had not gone near her, so he said, "Lord, will you destroy an innocent nation?
5 Did he not say to me, 'She is my sister,' and didn't she also say, 'He is my brother'? I have done this with a clear conscience and clean hands."
6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.
7 Now return the man's wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all yours will die."
..........
11 Abraham replied, "I said to myself, 'There is surely no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.'
12 Besides, she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife.
..........
 17 Then Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech, his wife and his slave girls so they could have children again,
18 for the LORD had closed up every womb in Abimelech's household because of Abraham's wife Sarah.

Notice how in the corrupt Bible, GOD Almighty supposedly had absolutely no problem with king Abimelech sleeping with a single woman.  The man was even surprised that GOD Almighty appeared to him for sleeping with what he thought was a single woman.  GOD Almighty's supposed only problem was that Sarah was:

1-  A (free) married woman.

2-  The wife of a Prophet.

Now notice how in Exodus 21 above, the slave women who were married were still ok to permissible for their masters to sleep with them.  Not only with them, but also with their daughters.  In Genesis 20, Sarah wasn't taken as a slave woman.  Abimelech was just going to have a one-night stand with her.  So the point here is that the Bible clearly allows:

1-  For the masters to sleep with their married women-slaves in certain cases.

2-  For the masters to sleep with the daughters of their male-slave.

3-  With men, in general, to sleep with single women without any problem.

4-  For the masters to sleep with their single women in all cases and situations. Genesis 20:17 further proves this along with many other verses.

But however, married women, who are free and are married to free men, are forbidden to be touched by other than their husbands.

  

In Islam:

Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah:  "Musaykah, a slave-girl of some Ansari, came and said: My master forces me to commit fornication. Thereupon the following verse was revealed: "But force not your maids to prostitution (when they desire chastity). (24:33)"  (Translation of Sunan Abu Dawud, Divorce (Kitab Al-Talaq), Book 12, Number 2304)"

In Islam, men are not allowed to rape their slave-girls.  Allah Almighty clearly prohibited it in Noble Verse 24:33.  In Islam, slavery is also not allowed.


Why did Allah Almighty make lawful for Muslim men to have sexual intercourse with the married women from the captives?


Let us look at the following Noble Verses from the Noble Quran:

"Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-  

Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath God ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and God is All-knowing, All-wise. (The Noble Quran, 4:23-24)"

The definition of the term "right hands possess" is "Captives of war".  Those from among the population of the tribes who fought the Muslims are considered "right hand possessions" if their tribe is defeated and captured.

We first need to understand that back 1400 years ago, when Islam was growing among the Pagan Arab Tribes, the Muslims were at constant wars with the Pagans. The Pagan tribes highly objected to the presence and the rapid growth of Islam, and they all united to fight Islam and finish it once and for all.

During those days, the Muslims did not have any government.  Governments provide welfare and protection to people.  Back then, and when there was no Islamic Government yet, the Muslims were their own country and were their own government. Everyone had to share in the responsibility DIRECTLY by sheltering the captives of wars at their homes.  

The reasons behind why Allah Almighty allowed such a law:

I'm referring to your justifications that Allah Almighty had made lawful for Muslims to have sexual intercourse with the married women whom are captives of war. According to a footnote of a Malay translated Holy Quran by H. Zainuddin Hamidy and Fachruddin, Klang Bookstore, Malaysia, 1955, with reference to sura 33:26,

[al-Ahzab 33:26] And He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some.,

the footnote read as follows:

'The punishment toward (the Jewish tribe) Banu Quraizah who betrayed and assisted the allies was handed down by Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him to Sa'ad bin Mu'ads.   The verdicts: They were sentenced to death, the women were made slaves (captives), and their lands were divided among the Muhajirins.  The decision was made as such based on the laws of the Old Testament, Deuteronomy 20:13-14

'13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

Thank you.

  

Here is how Deuteronomy 20:13-14 read:

Deuteronomy 20:13-20
13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword (even the unarmed ones):
14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.
19 When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field is man's life) to employ them in the siege:
20 Only the trees which thou knowest that they be not trees for meat, thou shalt destroy and cut them down; and thou shalt build bulwarks against the city that maketh war with thee, until it be subdued.

In the following verses we see the following:

1-   All men, including the unarmed ones, were to be executed (Deuteronomy 20:13).

2-   All women and children were to be taken as spoils of war (Deuteronomy 20:14).

3-   For the others, kill and destroy every creature that is breathing - that is all men, women, children and animals (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).


« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 03:23:50 PM by Peter »

Peter

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2010, 05:24:30 AM »
After you ignored my question immediately below I moved your post and my reply here because it didn't have anything to do with comparing Jesus to Mohammed, as the tangent in the "Islam and women" went. Indeed I should also move the Mohammed and Jesus comparisons to the Mohammed category and thread. So,

Do you understand, as Islamic scholars do, that Mohammed's 23 year record is a progressive revelation? That the later his revelations were in his life, the more important or "better" they were?
Indeed even as your own prophet suggested.

Quran 2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?


Put another way, did God's revelation to us through the scriptures end here?

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  

Did mankind stop developing after God created us?

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2010, 03:43:15 AM »
Do you understand, as Islamic scholars do, that Mohammed's 23 year record is a progressive revelation? That the later his revelations were in his life, the more important or "better" they were?
Indeed even as your own prophet suggested.

Quran 2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?


You run out of argument go and do some search???

Peter

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2010, 06:25:07 AM »
Do you understand, as Islamic scholars do, that Mohammed's 23 year record is a progressive revelation? That the later his revelations were in his life, the more important or "better" they were?
Indeed even as your own prophet suggested.

Quran 2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?


You run out of argument go and do some search???

Not at all. This is a preface to further discussion on this subject.
So was Mohammed a liar, or did he substitute one verse for a better one, just as he said he did? Since you don't understand that Mohammed was indeed a liar, then would you follow the first verse that the new one substituted for, or would you follow the later "better" verse that he "substituted" with?

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2010, 01:53:25 AM »
The post in which you quoted proof texted verses from the Old Testament, that were unrelated to what you quoted, has been moved to a more appropriate thread, with my replies to it that you ignored twice. It will be easier for you to see there, and reduce the confusion here.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=935.0


What is Progressive revelation according to Bible

Let See So many version of Bible,

"progressive revelation"

A Book with So Many errors and Lies

I am sure u r kidding????



Peter

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2010, 05:24:29 AM »
The post in which you quoted proof texted verses from the Old Testament, that were unrelated to what you quoted, has been moved to a more appropriate thread, with my replies to it that you ignored twice. It will be easier for you to see there, and reduce the confusion here.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=935.0


What is Progressive revelation according to Bible

Let See So many version of Bible,

"progressive revelation"

A Book with So Many errors and Lies

I am sure u r kidding????

But to advance your 7th century cult you had to turn to the Jehovah's Witness 19th century cult. They follow the false prophet Charles Taze Russell. They have to reject the Scriptures to follow Russell, like you have to reject the Scriptures to follow the false prophet Mohammed.

Like the non-Quranic cult of the Ahmadis that Sunnis hate so much and persecute, because the cult wants desperately, but of course falsely, to believe Mohammedan Islam is peaceful.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1501.0

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Re: Comparison between two groups of women
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2010, 01:54:21 AM »

Peter

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Re: Comparison between two groups of women
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2010, 08:24:19 AM »
http://www.biblica.com/bibles/about/9.php

"In the Old Testament there is so much war and violence sanctioned by Yahweh. Is this the same loving God portrayed in the New Testament? Let's take this seriously by quoting a few verses that seem repugnant to us. For example, Deuteronomy 20 contains Yahweh's instructions about war. If a city does not accept Israel's offer of peace and open its gates, then "when the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it" (verse13). With regard to other cities, the command is (verse 16), "Do not leave anything that breathes."

You probably also recall that the walls of Jericho came tumbling down, and then the Israelites "destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, and donkeys" (Joshua 6:21). This certainly seems brutal and vindictive, doesn't it? Or consider Joshua 11:20, "For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses." From our twenty-first century point of view, we ask, "What good was accomplished by all this annihilation?"

Yet there is clearly another side to Yahweh as well. While the prophet Ezekiel does not spare the wicked in his denunciations, he also records Yahweh's words of grace: "If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?" (Ezekiel 18:21, 23). And he goes on in verse 32, "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!" And there is this compelling verse recorded in 2 Chronicles 16:9, "For the eyes of the Lord range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him."

All these descriptions of God depict him as unwavering in retribution on evil, though he takes no delight in it, and also unwavering in love and encouragement toward those hearts are turned toward him. God's obvious desire is that sinners should repent and live. But there comes a point where evil is finally intolerable and wiped from off the earth.

We must see these terrible retributions in their historical setting. The spread of wickedness was so pervasive that immorality, degradation, and barbarity invaded every facet of life. Children were sacrificed to pagan gods. Male and female prostitution took place right in the temple as part of the religious rites. Idol worship was rife and the society wholly contaminated. This evil was contagious and God's people were in danger of being infected as well. God's awesome judgement was finally unleashed.

Today we have lost that black and white distinction between good and evil. Tolerance is presented as the great religious value. Indeed, tolerance of diversity is a high Christian value, but often today tolerance is taken to mean the virtue of accepting nearly every behavior under the sun. Anything goes - in the name of tolerance! A sweeping moral relativism is the result, and children grow up with fewer and fewer moral absolutes to guide them. We seldom hear the term sin anymore, but instead a dozen much milder words are employed. Surely the Lord will not tolerate this abomination to his holiness forever.

Nor do we like to accept the fact that when evil spreads, the innocent as well as the guilty are hurt. When the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, the city died, both the innocent and the guilty. A few days later, as a direct result, the war came to an end. It was a terrible end, but it was the end, and greater carnage was avoided. Let's be clear about this stricter and more communal view of justice in the Bible. The Canaanite pagan communities would surely intermarry with the Israelites, and God's people were in danger of succumbing to their sexual perversions and religious degradation. Finally, the danger became just too much

The entire Bible from beginning to end never deviates from this standard of justice as well as grace. Jesus is crystal clear about the punishment of evildoers, for on the day of judgement God will say to the evildoers, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). Our society does not much care to hear about pain and punishment, and prefers the meek and mild Jesus of some contemporary writers. But the God of the New Testament is the changeless God of the ages.

And in that affirmation lies our only hope. Clearly we have all missed the mark. Each of us stumbles, and wounds, and sins. Even the most godly affirm that over and over. In God's enduring justice, he never simply blinks casually at sin. But that is not the end of the story, nor even the overriding theme of the Bible. For as humanity spirals deeper into self-gratification, God intervenes. Indeed, the Old Testament is a record of God's intervening in the human situation with a new promise of hope. The New Testament is the record of grace applied to people lost in sin and rebellion. There was no compulsion placed on God to undertake this rescue operation. But the plan was and is indescribably marvelous. God did not forget about guilt and justice. Rather, Jesus Christ, the God-man, took on himself the punishment and so satisfied the grisly sentence. This is what Christians call grace. The Bible is mainly a record of grace, set against a backdrop of horror and misery.

This is an ageless and eternal story, persisting into this new millennium. The evil surrounding us seems to be growing and moral apathy seeps in everywhere. But still God's grace shines through. His love persists. He calls and calls until the very last moment. Have you discovered his grace? It's there - available for you to live in every day."

Peter

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Re: Progressive Revelation
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2010, 08:35:07 AM »
Did you ever stop to wonder why, over the last 3500 years, it never occurred to some scribes to delete or censor out the scriptures regarding the historical record of those violent events?
(that you choose to relish in through your limited 21st century antichrist Mohammedan mind and understanding, rather than research and try to understand an old covenant event, of thousands of years ago)

Peter

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Re: Progressive Revelation
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2010, 08:35:29 AM »
I find it to be absolutely ridiculous that the bible feeds us all kinds of lies and contradictions about "love your enemy", and yet, we see mass slaughter of suckling infants and innocent boys, girls, unarmed men, women (old and young), and innocent domestic farm animals by the tens of thousands!  It is clear that the inconsistent man-altered, man-corrupted and morally corrupt bible is nothing but a false book, and can not be a Divine and Perfect Holy Book!

1. Where do all the innocent people, that have been killed throughout human history, reside today?

2. Where would those innocent children reside today, if they had instead been allowed to grow up and in their turn, sacrifice their children to idols and such?

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Re: Progressive Revelation
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2010, 02:55:23 AM »

Did you ever stop to wonder why, over the last 3500 years, it never occurred to some scribes to delete or censor out the scriptures regarding the historical record of those violent events?
(that you choose to relish in through your limited 21st century antichrist Mohammedan mind and understanding, rather than research and try to understand an old covenant event, of thousands of years ago)

Muhammad was true Messenger of Allah as Jesus was! Paul was the biggest antichrist! He changed the teaching of Jesus and invent Christianity, infact Jesus was a Muslim

Peter

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Re: Progressive Revelation
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2010, 06:55:38 AM »

Did you ever stop to wonder why, over the last 3500 years, it never occurred to some scribes to delete or censor out the scriptures regarding the historical record of those violent events?
(that you choose to relish in through your limited 21st century antichrist Mohammedan mind and understanding, rather than research and try to understand an old covenant event, of thousands of years ago)

Reply to each post in order, beginning with this one.
Muhammad was true Messenger of Allah as Jesus was!

Mohammed was a messenger of Satan because he taught the exact opposite of Yahshua through ALL of the prophets and witnesses of the new covenant. ONE MUST CHOOSE.
Yahweh or Satan
Yahshua (which means - Yahweh saves) or Mohammed
good or evil
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=148.0

Peter

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Re: Progressive Revelation
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2010, 06:56:02 AM »
Paul was .......

Why pick on Paul when you must reject ALL of the prophets and apostles of the new covenant, and the Gospel itself, to follow Mohammed?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

Mark 15:24 And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.

Luke 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

John 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also [his] coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.

Just as it was prophesied 1,000 years in advance.

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

It's time for you to be honest enough with yourself, and us, to admit that YOU MUST REJECT ALL of the prophets and apostles as revealed through the Scriptures and Gospel of Yahshua, to follow Mohammed.
You must reject the Gospel itself.
You can see from the above witnesses, that you unequivocally reject them all, can't you?

Peter

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Re: Progressive Revelation
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2010, 07:04:24 AM »
..... the biggest antichrist!

Antichrist is a scriptural term. Thus the only way to understand it is through Scripture.

1 John 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:

That verse is asking you a question, punisher. Do you deny the Son of God?
Do you hold the doctrine of Christ?

2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Are you ready to stand before the Son of God in judgment?

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

What will antichrist's reward be?

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

You vilify Paul, but look at how the prophet John condemns Mohammedanism!
The fact is you must reject the entirety of the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind, to follow Mohammed's 23 year, 7th century record, and preposterous created historical fiction of Mohammed's recitations, and those that followed attempting to make some sense out of Mohammed's disjointed rantings.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1176.0
A man revealed as a moral reprobate by your own books.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?board=53.0

Peter

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Re: Progressive Revelation
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2010, 07:09:12 AM »
He changed the teaching of Jesus ......

By now you should be able to see how foolish it is to single out Paul, when Mohammedans must reject the whole 1600 year record of Yahweh to His people, to follow Mohammed's 7th century 23 year record of repackaged moon, sun, star and jinn/demon worship.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1140.0
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1267.0

Peter

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Re: Progressive Revelation
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2010, 07:14:15 AM »
.... and invent Christianity, .......

CHRISTianity is composed of those that follow Jesus CHRIST - Hebrew name Yahshua/Yeshua (Which means - Yahweh saves).
MOHAMMEDANism is composed of those that reject the Scriptures to follow the 7th century false prophet Mohammed.

Peter

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Re: Progressive Revelation
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2010, 08:19:06 AM »
....... infact Jesus was a Muslim

Sorry my friend. Mohammedanism wasn't invented until the 7th century, over 500 years after the record of Yahweh to mankind was closed.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Forever is a very long time, my friend.

Please respond in order, from the top (click the following link), with no spamming. I took the time to compose my answers and it shouldn't be asking too much to expect the same from you. Please compose each and every word, except for verses that you want to copy and paste from the Quran or Hadith.

First you ignored these questions.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=935.msg6970#msg6970

Next start here
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=935.msg7059#msg7059