Author Topic: TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali  (Read 10429 times)

Pete

  • Sr. Member
  • Posts: 272
    • View Profile
TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« on: July 21, 2008, 02:01:39 PM »
Also please read "The Prophet of Doom" for much more textual criticism of the Quran
http://prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_Doom_Islams_Terrorist_Dogma_in_Muhammads_Own_Words.Islam

"Gerd Puin, the world's leading specialist in Arabic calligraphy and Qur'anic paleography, studying the oldest manuscripts, speaks with disdain about the willingness of Muslims and non-Muslims alike, to accept Islamic dogma. He says: "The Qur'an claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or clear, but if you just look at it, you will see that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur'an is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur'an is not comprehensible, if it can't even be understood in Arabic, then it's not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid."

From Islam Reviewed
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/islam_reviewed_contents.htm

 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/textual_history_of_the_koran.htm

Almost every Muslim is taught from infancy to cling to the notion that
the Bible has been corrupted and changed, while the Koran is free
from corruption, perfectly preserved since the time of Muhammad.
But a thorough study of the textual history of the Koran will show
that it is not the Bible, but the Koran that has been changed. That is
what Islamic historians themselves bequeathed to us.

After the famous battle of Aqraba in 632 AD, during the Caliphate
of Abu Bakr, many Muslims who knew the Koran by heart were killed.
As a result, Umar B. Al-Khattab advised Abu Bakr of the need to compile
the Koran into a standardized text. Abu Bakr ordered the compilation to
be made by Zaid Ibn Thabit from inscriptions on palm leaves, stones and
from the remaining reciters.

When the compilation was done, it was kept by Abu Bakr until his
death. His successor, Umar, then took custody of it. Afterward, it came
into the possession of Hafsa, one of Muhammad's widows (a daughter of
Umar).1 The companions of the prophet also did their own compilations
and produced other manuscripts for use in various provinces. There were
four rival provinces, each using a different text of the Koran.2

During the reign of Khalif Uthman (the third Khalifah),  reports
reached him that in various parts of Syria, Armenia and Iraq, Muslims
were reciting the Koran differently from the way it was being recited by
Arabian Muslims. Uthman immediately sent for the manuscript in Hafsa's
possession and ordered Zaid Ibn Thabit and three others, Abdullah Ibn
Zubair, Said Ibn Al-As and Abdullah Al-Rahman Ibn Harith B. Hisham to
make copies of the text and make corrections where necessary. When
these were completed, we  read that Uthman took violent action
regarding other existing Koranic manuscripts:
______________________________

1 See Mishkatul Massabih, ch. 3
 2  In Kufa, the manuscript of Abdullah ibn Masud was in use. That of Ubyy Ibn
Ka'b was in the possession of the Syrians. The one edited by Migdad Ibn Amr was
in circulation in the province of Hims. While that of Abu Musa al-Ash'ari was in use
in Basra, Iraq.
____________________________________

 Islam Reviewed    21

"Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they
had copied and ordered that all the other koranic materials,
whether written in fragmentary manuscripts, whole copies, to
be burnt." (Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 6 Page 479).

To  eliminate  variant  readings  and  contradictions,  all  other manuscripts were indeed burned, but the Uthmanic edition itself was not perfect and met with a similar fate. When Marwan was governor of Medina, he ordered Hafsa's manuscript to be destroyed. The only reasonable conclusion one can have is that during Uthman's time, some of the contradictions in Hafsa's text were so glaring that a total destruction of it was called for rather than a revision. From then until now, conflicting passages and historical inaccuracies exist within the  Koranic texts.

The Deedats, the Joommals, and the so-called Sheiks continue their unwarranted attack on the Bible while suppressing the fact that Khalif Uthman burned all the Koranic manuscripts apart from Hafsa's, and that Governor Marwan followed the example of Uthman by destroying the Hafsa text as well. Anyone with the slightest regard for truth would have to admit that the Textus Receptus of the Koran now in circulation is a far cry from the textus originalis! It  is not too wild to suggest that were Muhammad alive at the time of these incidents, he would have received one of his usual "revelations" to back up those burnings.

Contrary  to Muslim belief,  there were more  than  just  language differences between Uthman's text and the texts which were ordered to be burned. In every case, there were considerable verbal differences between them and the text Uthman determined (by whim) to be the final standardized version of the Koran.

These differences were real textual variants and not just language peculiarities as is often taken for granted. In several cases there were words and sentences found in some codices that were missing in others. In other instances, the variants concerned whole clauses and consonantal variants in certain words. No wonder Khalif Uthman had to resort to wholesale burning as his best option.1
____________________________________________

1 See Jeffery, Materials for the History of the Text of the Koran, pp. 24-114. The
author has gone to considerable effort to collect solid evidence from the many
Islamic sources that are documented in this book.
__________________________________

 22   Islam Reviewed

Evidence abounds to this day, that verses, indeed whole passages are
missing from the Koran that is in circulation today. For instance, the
second Khalifah, Khalif Umar, stated in his life-time that certain verses
prescribing stoning for adultery were recited by Prophet Muhammad
himself as part of the Koran:

"God sent Muhammad and sent down the scripture to him. Part
of what he sent down was the passage on stoning. We read it,
we were taught it, and we heeded it. The apostle stoned and we
stoned after him. I fear that in time to come men will say that
they find no mention of stoning in God's book and thereby go
astray in neglecting an ordinance which God has sent down.
Verily, stoning in the book of God is a penalty laid on married
men and women who commit adultery." (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat
Rasulullah p. 684)

The verse on stoning, no longer to be  found  in the Koran, is
incontrovertible proof that the Koran as it stands today is not the same
as the one spoken by Muhammad.

What the public does not know is that Jihad has many faces. Jihad
is not just slaughtering people for Islam, but it is also  a  systematic
suppression of truth and propagation of lies.1 If not, how can Muslims
boldly assert (despite hard historic evidence to the contrary) that the
Bible has been changed while the Koran has been perfectly preserved
since Muhammad's time?
__________________________________________

2 Archeological Note: In support of M. Ali's statement: the true site of Mt. Sinai was
found over two decades ago by the archeologist Ron Wyatt. Sinai is now known to
be Jebel el-Lawz on the Arabian Peninsula. It is right where the Bible has been
saying it was all along (see Galatians  4:25). However, the Saudi government has
surrounded  the  Mt.  Sinai  site  with  a  chain-link  fence  and  suppressed  the
information, probably because of the devastating effect that discovery could have
on the validity of Islam and the Koran. If the information on that site were to be
released, it would discredit the Islamic claim that the Bible has been corrupted.
That  site,  the  artifacts  therein  (and  similar  sites  in Arabia  such  as Rephidim),
exactly fit the Bible's description of the Israelite wilderness wanderings. Those sites
prove the Bible to be both accurate and true. (Videos of that ancient site and many
others are available from Wyatt Archeological Research, 713 Lambert Dr.,
Nashville, TN 37220).
_______________________________________

 Islam Reviewed    23

You cannot tell me that Islamic scholars are ignorant of the many
defects in the Koran, nor of the havoc that the various Khalifs have done
to it.1 We, ourselves, are not in any way amazed for the Bible has said:

Such teachings [Propaganda] come through hypocritical liars,
whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
(1 Timothy 4:2, NIV)

The plain truth is that the Koran has been changed through
suppression and burning, and many of its passages have been deliber-
ately removed or altered.
_________________________________

1 M.O.A. Abdul, in his book entitled Studies in Islamic Series, vol. 3, pp. 19-20, 1st
printing 1971, mentioned the incidents that led Khalif Uthman to burn Koranic
manuscripts.
_______________________________

Prior Chapter - Contents - Next Chapter

[added 1-3-2011] Corruption of the Quran
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Corruption_of_the_Qur%27an
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 12:47:35 PM by Peter »
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
Please visit: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Summadat

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2008, 02:26:26 AM »
Ahhh, historians- what do they know other than what is perceived?  This is exactly why the christians now say that Jesus was crucified.
I attend a small Masjid, and several of my brothers know the Qur'an by heart (called 'Haafez')- front to back.  So even if one knows it, he can teach it to a nation- there is not a single other book in the world that is memorized as often as the Qur'an. And this is exactly how God Kept his Word to the Muslims, that He would preserve the Qur'an.

Note that Qur'an as written in the english is only a translation- it is not the actual word of God, since the original Qur'an was done in Arabic, and that it is near impossible to convey all the intended meanings from arabic to english- hence the reason why many Muslims aspire to learn the arabic language.

Another beauty of this uniformed religious language, is that any Muslim, english, swede, dutch, polish, indian, american, asian- no matter what part of the world they are- once the Muslim makes the call to prayer, EVERY single other muslim will recognize it- and every single muslim could learn Qur'an- just so that people don't 'manipulate' and change the words like what has been done to the Bible.  As a muslim in america, I can go to the most distant and isolated area, and once there is another muslim there praying, I will recognize that.  Can you say the same thing about christianity?

Pete

  • Sr. Member
  • Posts: 272
    • View Profile
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2008, 09:11:35 AM »
Note that Qur'an as written in the english is only a translation- it is not the actual word of God, since the original Qur'an was done in Arabic, and that it is near impossible to convey all the intended meanings from arabic to english- hence the reason why many Muslims aspire to learn the arabic language.

I have read that this is another way of saying that about 1 in every 5 verses are so unintelligible, that the defy understanding, and since they can't be understood even in Arabic, they can't be translated into another language.
That makes perfect sense. "Secrets of the Koran" by Don Richardson.

Why didn't you deny that it was collected up and all but a preferred version burned, on two separate occasions, by Bakir and Uthman?

Did you ever play the game where someone tells a story and it gets whispered from one person to the next in a circle?
In just a half dozen people it becomes quite a different story. That's the problem with depending on men's minds for preservation of something.
The only way there is any uniformity today is, of course, because this version was finally, and quite wildly, constructed into a WRITTEN version.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2008, 10:14:55 AM by Pete »
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
Please visit: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Summadat

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2008, 11:27:25 AM »
Well then has not Allah Kept His Word about preserving the Qur'an?  No matter what sect of muslims, the words remain completely the same!

As regarding the different versions: well, when there is something sacred at hand, and you know the exact matter, and someone- out of only good will- propagates the matter; but the only thing is that what he propagates is not true.  Would you stand by and watch him propagate the wrong message simply because he does not know the correct thing? Or would you correct him?

You see, I have read from the king James version- by the way, have you noticed who's version it is?  I did not know that God gave 'King James' authority to rewrite and collect 'god's words'- I wonder why king James doesn't have his own foreword too.  Anyway, I have read from the KJV, and from different versions- and they all render a different story!

I quoted you an example already:
NIV says: 'Of that Hour no man knows, not the Son, not the Angels in Heaven, Only the Father'
KJV says: 'Of that Hour no man knows, no, not the Angels in Heaven, Only the Father'

As you can notice 'not the son' does not appear in the KJV- I mean, it is only a translation, so some words have to have been omitted.

Some years ago, I read a couple other versions too, in which I had pointed out to someone else that one version said:

"Good teacher, what must I do......'Why do you call me Good? But to tell you the truth, keep the commandments"

another version had:
"Good teacher, what must I do......'Why do you call me Good? None is Good except God; but to tell you the truth the only way to eternal life is to keep the commandments"

when I was younger, there was another version that said: 'Do not call me good, none is Good except God...'

And there went the evolution. To deny that there are serious differences in portrayal in different versions of the Bible is simply being blind.  Now you said to trash the other bibles, you use the KJV- who authorized the KJV? Did Jesus somewhere in the Bible said that he will send KJ to collect writings including the one from the writer who said that he decided to write because 'It seemed good to me also', and that christians must follow that version?

But you cannot say this about the Qur'an.  The arabic remains the arabic, and it is a language not very difficult to learn.  The words remain the same- and everyone speaks it in the same way, but perhaps different rhythm.  So if I hear my brother recite it wrongly, I can correct him, and vice versa. Again, Shiite, Sunni, Salafi, Wahhabi, Tablighi... although they may have religious differences, they recite the exact same words from the qur'an.  Catholics have 73 books, Protestants have 66, You have your own... that is why your religion is unique.  Each and every christian has their own interpretation.

Now those are facts.  The rest of 'plundering, pillaging, raping, murdering....' and other derogatory words you used that simply pointed out the actions of the man, not the creed or the doctrine, simply holds no weight.  Catholicism cannot be debunked because some priests rape little boys!  Men will sin, no matter how high their rank is.  So, if there is some other matter in Islam, besides- the fact that the qur'an discredits a crucifixion, or the theory of a 'begotten son' then feel free to speak on it.  If you want to judge the actions of men, then feel free to do so also, just that I will not pay attention to those, nor try to give explanations for them.

Pete

  • Sr. Member
  • Posts: 272
    • View Profile
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2008, 12:38:32 PM »
Well then has not Allah Kept His Word about preserving the Qur'an?  No matter what sect of muslims, the words remain completely the same!

Indeed. As sad as that should be to admit to:

Regarding prostituting those that have been turned into sex slaves that were captured through imperialistic conquest:

Sura 24:33...But force not your maids to prostitution WHEN they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But IF anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

So WHEN they DON'T desire chastity, pimp 'em out and make some cash!

And even IF YOU COMPEL THEM into prostitution, it's forgiven.
That's what I call accommodating!
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=68.0

Or the bigamy. Imagine. If dirty old lechers in the U.S. were all allowed to marry 4 pre-pubescent girls, then 3 out of every 4 young men would have to do without.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=60.0

As regarding the different versions: well, when there is something sacred at hand, and you know the exact matter, and someone- out of only good will- propagates the matter; but the only thing is that what he propagates is not true.  Would you stand by and watch him propagate the wrong message simply because he does not know the correct thing? Or would you correct him?

The problem is that more often than not, the guy doing the correcting would be the one that was in error. That's the problem with not having a written record. You've obviously never played the game where a story is whispered around a circle and by the time it gets back to the original teller it is hardly recognizable. And this happens in less than an hour's time.

You see, I have read from the king James version- by the way, have you noticed who's version it is?  I did not know that God gave 'King James' authority to rewrite and collect 'god's words'- I wonder why king James doesn't have his own foreword too.  Anyway, I have read from the KJV, and from different versions- and they all render a different story!

The King James is based on the Textus Receptus or majority Greek text. Which is good to consult when a question arises in one's reading of the KJV.
I previously cautioned you against the modern versions that are based on a corrupt 19th century Greek text.
Interesting read:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/new_age_bible_versions.htm

I quoted you an example already:
NIV says: 'Of that Hour no man knows, not the Son, not the Angels in Heaven, Only the Father'
KJV says: 'Of that Hour no man knows, no, not the Angels in Heaven, Only the Father'

As you can notice 'not the son' does not appear in the KJV- I mean, it is only a translation, so some words have to have been omitted.

Textus Receptus:
(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Matthew 24:36  peri  <4012>  de  <1161>  thV  <3588> {BUT CONCERNING}  hmeraV  <2250> {DAY}  ekeinhV  <1565> {THAT}  kai  <2532> {AND}  thV  <3588> {THE}  wraV  <5610> {HOUR}  oudeiV  <3762> {NO ONE}  oiden  <1492> (5758) {KNOWS,}  oude  <3761> {NOT EVEN}  oi  <3588> {THE}  aggeloi  <32> {ANGELS}  twn  <3588> {OF THE}  ouranwn  <3772> {HEAVENS,}  ei  <1487>  mh  <3361>  o  <3588> {BUT}  pathr  <3962>  mou  <3450> {MY FATHER}  monoV  <3441> {ONLY.}

You can set the NIV aside. No need to open it. http://www.beholdthebeast.com/new_age_bible_versions.htm

Regarding the textual history of the bible it has it's own thread: http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=97.0

Some years ago, I read a couple other versions too, in which I had pointed out to someone else that one version said:

"Good teacher, what must I do......'Why do you call me Good? But to tell you the truth, keep the commandments"

another version had:
"Good teacher, what must I do......'Why do you call me Good? None is Good except God; but to tell you the truth the only way to eternal life is to keep the commandments"

when I was younger, there was another version that said: 'Do not call me good, none is Good except God...'

And there went the evolution. To deny that there are serious differences in portrayal in different versions of the Bible is simply being blind.  Now you said to trash the other bibles, you use the KJV- who authorized the KJV? Did Jesus somewhere in the Bible said that he will send KJ to collect writings including the one from the writer who said that he decided to write because 'It seemed good to me also', and that christians must follow that version?

But you cannot say this about the Qur'an. 

Don't be silly. The Quran is in such a state of disarray that you have to follow the rule of abrogation. That later verses that contradict earlier verses win. The Quran is a mess.

The arabic remains the arabic, and it is a language not very difficult to learn.  The words remain the same- and everyone speaks it in the same way, but perhaps different rhythm.  So if I hear my brother recite it wrongly, I can correct him, and vice versa. Again, Shiite, Sunni, Salafi, Wahhabi, Tablighi... although they may have religious differences, they recite the exact same words from the qur'an.  Catholics have 73 books, ...

The Catholics added the Apocrypha in, I think, the 11th century, in an anti-reformation effort.
These are books written in Hebrew that the Jews never considered to be inspired.
For that reason nobody else did either until the Catholic Church needed them as a tool to support their heresies against the Reformation.

....Protestants have 66, You have your own... that is why your religion is unique.  Each and every christian has their own interpretation.

Now those are facts.  The rest of 'plundering, pillaging, raping, murdering....' and other derogatory words you used that simply pointed out the actions of the man,...

What is the hadith for if not to better follow your prophet? You are required to consider it inspired.
imams preach that if you don't believe in the bigamy of 4 wives and concubines, and if you don't believe that men should be able to marry 9 year olds, THEN YOU ARE NOT A MUSLIM.
Here is the sting camera from inside the mosque in England where they preached exactly that.
Imagine what it is like in a mosque in Saudi Arabia!!!!!
Dispatches - Undercover Mosque (1 of 6)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo

Who do you think is going to run Islam Sumadat? A bunch of Saudi Wahabis, or a bunch of peaceful Moroccan Sufis?
You are delivering your own children and their children into Satan's hand.
Who do you think built the 1500 mosques, and university Islamic centers? The Saudi Wahabis/Muslim Brotherhood.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=saudi+wahabi+mosque+u.s.+muslim+brotherhood&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

Here is how it's going in Nigeria. Saudi Arabia is the perfect model for their sharia law there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fbXvq_ZIbw Animals.

Here is an imam that approves of sex with a 1 day old baby:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuXSnR30oMM&feature

You see, your prophet removed limits on what men can do to and with women.

Video of a Saudi woman:  "Saudi society is based on Masters and slaves....To be more precise masters and maids... masters are the men and slaves are the women.... The ownership of a woman is passed from one man to another.... from the father or the brother, to another man, the husband."
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1465wmv&ak=null

"Two million Muslim women beaten ..... in France!  So what goes on in the Arab world?  Total isolation."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouztv-tRPKM&NR=1

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#women

And of course the raping as part of Jihad goes on today. It was what Walid Shoebat was taught in him Madrass. It is what began his journey to Jesus Christ.

"Eyewitness accounts detailing the militia attacks are horrifying. "They killed my 3-year-old son right in front of my eyes," one father from West Darfur said. Since last fall, women have reported more than 500 rapes. Three women said five militiamen beat and raped them last August. The women said, "After they abused us, they told us that now we would have Arab babies. And, if they would find any [more] women, they would rape them again to change the color of their children.""
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm

It's a bunch of ugly filth isn't it? http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

It's not about yesterday. It's about today. The same old dar el salaam, slaughtering the dar el harb.
Here is what you and Mohammed are consigning the world to:



Slavery can never be erased from the Quran, so it will never be erased from Islam. Indeed women are slaves in Islam.

Sura 2:223 your wives are as tilth (farmland) unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will...

Sura 4:34 - Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.



YouTube search - wife beating Islam. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=wife+beating+islam&search=Search

Also - honor killing. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=honor+killing+islam&search_type=&aq=f

Satan's people.

...not the creed or the doctrine, simply holds no weight.  Catholicism cannot be debunked because some priests rape little boys!  Men will sin, no matter how high their rank is.  So, if there is some other matter in Islam, besides- the fact that the qur'an discredits a crucifixion, or the theory of a 'begotten son' then feel free to speak on it.  If you want to judge the actions of men, then feel free to do so also, just that I will not pay attention to those, nor try to give explanations for them.
I posted enough by X-nuns and priests to adequately open eyes in regard to the Roman church.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?board=7.0

They slaughtered Christians as well as Jews and Muslims.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 01:24:56 PM by Pete »
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
Please visit: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Summadat

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2008, 11:58:49 PM »
Okay, if you insist that your bible is 'free of sin'...

Jesus said: I did not come to overrule the Laws of the Prophets' i.e Moses, Jonah..those that preceeded him- thus legalizing 'an eye for an eye'.  But he did express that it is better to 'turn the other cheek'- forgive.

But wait! Jesus also allegedly said:
Matthew 10:34
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword'.


Now if this came from a man of God, what would you expect from mere ignorant folks?

And if this is not enough for you: Read Luke 12:49-53
 49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

Well, that is just humbling you a bit.  Perhaps you ignored these matters in your book, or perhaps you did not want me to find it.  Anyway, I understand that some things are far worse than death.  Oppressing someone is worse than killing.  Deceiving someone for their whole life is worse than killing him/her.  Torturing someone is worse than killing him/her.  That said, I do not find fault with your religion in the epics of the Inquisition.  I do not blame christianity for Hitler.  I do not blame the christians for all the crime and corruption in christian countries- (about 80% of countries). Not at all, men will sin, but a religion is not to blame for it.  Similarly, you cannot blame Islam because people claiming to be muslims 'commit suicide bombings' or kill or commit other heinous actions.  Those things are strictly forbidden in Islam.

You then said:

"Regarding prostituting those that have been turned into sex slaves that were captured through imperialistic conquest:

Sura 24:33...But force not your maids to prostitution WHEN they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But IF anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

So WHEN they DON'T desire chastity, pimp 'em out and make some cash!

And even IF YOU COMPEL THEM into prostitution, it's forgiven.
That's what I call accommodating!"


You profuse with ignorance! The forgiveness is for the women that are forced to do an evil act! Not for the men that force them to do so!  Prostitution is a sin in Islam, and because if a woman is forced into sinning, then it would be forgiven of her, not her oppressor!

Regarding beating women- the Qur'an is explained to men by the Prophet Muhammad.  For example: when is is instructed to knock on doors before entering, Muhammad (SAW) explained that this instruction is only to guard the eyes.  Only the eyes. And almost every single verse is explained even though most are quite self-explanatory.  In the verse you stated about beating women, the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) explained that this 'beating' is done with only a single finger, or with the 'miswak' which is a tiny stick the arabs used to clean their teeth- it is smaller than the pinky finger!  He explained that this should not be done to harm nor bruise her.  Now if someone claims otherwise it is only from ignorance!

If it is games of deception that you are interested in, I hold no interest.  If it is accusation based on the misdeeds of other men, I am no judge and want no part of that.  If you are interested in discussing the truth, then I would love that, and would engage.  Let's keep this talk surrounding the real issues instead of who killed who; because on judgment day, I won't be questioned about what anyone else did.  I will be questioned about what I did with what I had.  Each is accountable for themselves.  And the only ones not accountable are those not yet of puberty, those who acted only under coercion or compulsion, and those who were not mentally discerning.

Pete

  • Sr. Member
  • Posts: 272
    • View Profile
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2008, 08:54:48 AM »
Okay, if you insist that your bible is 'free of sin'...

Jesus said: I did not come to overrule the Laws of the Prophets' i.e Moses, Jonah..those that preceeded him- thus legalizing 'an eye for an eye'.  But he did express that it is better to 'turn the other cheek'- forgive.

But wait! Jesus also allegedly said:
Matthew 10:34
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword'.


Once again demonstrating that the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit of God, particularly through the filter of Mohammedanism.
Did Jesus engage in the filthy pillage, plunder, murder, rape, prostutuion and imperialistic conquest detailed in the Quran? No.
Did Jesus consign people to smite people at the neck who weren't Christians like Islam? No.
The most violent thing Jesus did was overturn the tables of the moneychangers.

Then a reasonable person would have to ask, of what use would a sword be to a Christian?
The only way to understand, or course, would be to search out exactly WHAT a sword IS.

HERE ARE THE EVIL WEAPONS OF CHRISTIANS, with which Islam has been slain over and over again, throughout our exchange Sumadat. The passage begins by identifying our enemies, of which Islam is perfectly described:

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Mohammedanism has been duly slain in post after post of our exchange. You have been shown repeatedly that Islam IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE of the Word of God.

Islam is the only anti-another-religion, religion, besides Satanism. Think about that Sum.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 01:15:35 PM by Pete »
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
Please visit: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Pete

  • Sr. Member
  • Posts: 272
    • View Profile
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2008, 09:53:34 AM »
You profuse with ignorance! The forgiveness is for the women that are forced to do an evil act! Not for the men that force them to do so!  Prostitution is a sin in Islam, and because if a woman is forced into sinning, then it would be forgiven of her, not her oppressor!

"Prostitution is a sin in Islam,..."

Where does the Quran contradict itself in regard to sura 24:33 that clearly indicates that WHEN your maids DO NOT desire chastity that you are at liberty to pimp them out for gain.

Sura 24:33: ...But force not your maids to prostitution WHEN they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 04:44:53 PM by Pete »
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
Please visit: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Pete

  • Sr. Member
  • Posts: 272
    • View Profile
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2008, 04:20:33 PM »
Now if this came from a man of God, what would you expect from mere ignorant folks?

Exactly what you have expressed. But you can't help your ignorance unless and until you repent:
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

And if this is not enough for you: Read Luke 12:49-53
 49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

Well, that is just humbling you a bit.

We find literal fulfillment of this in Nigeria today. Families divided. Those members that have have folded and fallen to the Satanism of Islam and sharia law, and those family members that continue to stand up for Jesus at the expense of being slaughtered by Muslims. The fellow on the following video describes exactly that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fbXvq_ZIbw&feature

Perhaps you ignored these matters in your book, or perhaps you did not want me to find it.  Anyway, I understand that some things are far worse than death.  Oppressing someone is worse than killing.  Deceiving someone for their whole life is worse than killing him/her.

This is Islam defined. Leading minions south since the 7th century.
Far worse than death. The "second death":
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and THE false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 
Torturing someone is worse than killing him/her.

"Torturing someone is worse than killing him/her."
Indeed. This perfectly describes a 9 year old girl, whose father is slain in battle, and then she is taken as a captive and pressed into sexual service with 4 wives plus concubines, in some filthy old lecher's harem. And is then prostituted for cash. All perfectly Quranic. All supported to the letter, by Islamic imams today including violating 9 year old "wives". Sumadat, they say if YOU don't support it, you are not a Muslim. Video of them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo

"O prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war ...this only for thee, and not for believers [at large]; we know what we have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hand possess;...(Sura 33:50-51)

Regarding prostituting those turned into sex slaves captured through imperialism:

Sura 24:33...But force not your maids to prostitution WHEN they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But IF anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

So WHEN they DON'T desire chastity, pimp 'em out and make some cash!

And even IF YOU COMPEL THEM into prostitution, it's forgiven.
That's what I call accommodating!

That said, I do not find fault with your religion in the epics of the Inquisition.

You can't condemn murder because you live in that glass house. You must necessarily ignore it and adopt the reprobate mind required to follow Mohammedanism. Just look at your prophet's life.

The papal murders including Christians of the Roman Church was EXACTLY CONTRARY to God's Word.
The Roman Catholic church was doing the work of Satan during the inquisitions, just as surely as Islam is doing the work of Satan around the world today through murder and mayhem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMHCGT9syZ8&feature
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.  31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

The papacy murdered Christians because the Roman church couldn't stand the light of the truth. Just like Islam cannot stand the light of that truth today.

I do not blame christianity for Hitler.

Blame Christianity? He was not only a demonic reprobate, exactly the opposite of God's Word, but he WAS PERFECTLY CONSISTENT WITH ISLAM and genocide of Jews. THE ISLAMIC MUFTI OF JERUSALEM was a right hand man of Hitler/Satan.
Islam today is well described as Islamo-Nazism.

Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini [Hitler's Mufti]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m2OzEvyrsw

Hitler and the Mufti
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6OK1Pi3xV8

Hitler, The Mufti Of Jerusalem And Modern Islamo Nazism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d51poygEXYU

History Of The Bosnian Muslim Nazi 13th SS Handzar Division
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNzTL4zu5Xg&feature=related

Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini [Hitler's Mufti]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m2OzEvyrsw

Indoctrinated 3-year old.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbHVEGnYD8&feature

Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West (1 of 10)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMLJJEDDDGc

Brigette Gabriel: Because They Hate Us - Islam Unveiled (1 of 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwqdTeKI7J8&feature

3 Former Muslim Terrorists (1 of 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF5YRag46P8&feature

Islam: religion of peace?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV66c2wzIU4&feature

Kindergarten Graduation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WHdWgES-Uw&feature

I do not blame the christians for all the crime and corruption in christian countries- (about 80% of countries).

Christian country? Where? Countries are run by secular governments.
It would indeed be stupid to blame Christianity for crime, wouldn't it?
1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Not at all, men will sin, but a religion is not to blame for it.  Similarly, you cannot blame Islam because people claiming to be muslims 'commit suicide bombings' or kill or commit other heinous actions.  Those things are strictly forbidden in Islam.

Islam is the direct cause of the murder, mayhem and misery around the world today. Those acts are only forbidden against THE INNOCENT. In Islam, THE ONLY INNOCENT are IN ISLAM. For the rest it is just as the Quran demands:

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

I know your game very well.
But imam after imam on the video page confirm that THE ONLY INNOCENTS are MUSLIMS. And those imams are in ENGLAND. Imagine the view of a Saudi imam.

In Indonesia 3 teenage girls were beheaded on their way to their Christian school and one head left on the steps of a Church.  The note left behind reads:  "We will murder 100 more Christian teenagers and their heads will be presented as presents."

Just pleasing the god of Mohammedanism.

You then said:

"Regarding prostituting those that have been turned into sex slaves that were captured through imperialistic conquest:

Sura 24:33...But force not your maids to prostitution WHEN they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But IF anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

So WHEN they DON'T desire chastity, pimp 'em out and make some cash!

And even IF YOU COMPEL THEM into prostitution, it's forgiven.
That's what I call accommodating!"


You profuse with ignorance! The forgiveness is for the women that are forced to do an evil act! Not for the men that force them to do so!  Prostitution is a sin in Islam, and because if a woman is forced into sinning, then it would be forgiven of her, not her oppressor!

Don't be silly. The very same verse permits men to prostitute their slaves. There would be no need to receive forgivness for that which they are already allowed.

Additionally, all her master would have to do is remove her desire for chastity either through profit-sharing, or through beating her into submission.



These are the rulers of Islam. Not some western wannabe peacenicks.

The part of wife beating that reprobates argue is how hard to beat your wife and what with.
The REAL PROBLEM is the MENTAL TORTURE and ABUSE of the entire act, that is never addressed in YouTube after YouTube which address the HOW TO beat your wife.
The mental abuse is the same whether it is done with a wet noodle or a tire iron. But Islamic reprobates cannot be expected to see that until they repent of Islam and the view that a woman is as tilth, with half the value of a man.

And laughably at the same time the prophet declaring that there are more women in hell because they are deficient in intelligence, and they have a menstrual cycle.  (Sura al-Baqara 2:282) http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#women

Regarding beating women- the Qur'an is explained to men by the Prophet Muhammad.  For example: when is is instructed to knock on doors before entering, Muhammad (SAW) explained that this instruction is only to guard the eyes.  Only the eyes. And almost every single verse is explained even though most are quite self-explanatory.  In the verse you stated about beating women, the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) explained that this 'beating' is done with only a single finger, or with the 'miswak' which is a tiny stick the arabs used to clean their teeth- it is smaller than the pinky finger!  He explained that this should not be done to harm nor bruise her.  Now if someone claims otherwise it is only from ignorance!

It is not about what some western lazy-boy lounging armchair Muslim "wish it meant this" believes the Quran to be. It is what those real Muslims, those fundamentalists in the cradle of the religion understand. They are simply using people like you as pawns in their take-over of the world. The Wahabis have set up 1500 mosques in the U.S. Who do you think will be in charge? You or them?

"Two million Muslim women beaten ..... in France!  So what goes on in the Arab world?  Total isolation."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouztv-tRPKM&NR=1

Video of a Saudi woman:  "Saudi society is based on Masters and slaves....To be more precise masters and maids... masters are the men and slaves are the women.... The ownership of a woman is passed from one man to another.... from the father or the brother, to another man, the husband."
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1465wmv&ak=null

The fruit is the proof of the Quran. These people are driven by Satan. Just like the picture above. You are consigning your family into Satan's grip.

Matthew 7:17-18  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.  18  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If it is games of deception that you are interested in, I hold no interest.  If it is accusation based on the misdeeds of other men,....

You can believe it is about misdeeds, but the men who murder in the name of Allah are doing it IN ORDER TO GO TO HEAVEN, not as misdeeds. It is about the Quran and Mohammed. It is about the dar el salaam and the dar el harb.
Islam must take over Satan's kingdoms. Christians are in the kingdom of God, outside of Satan's kingdoms of this world.

.... I am no judge and want no part of that.  If you are interested in discussing the truth, then I would love that, and would engage.  Let's keep this talk surrounding the real issues instead of who killed who;...

The subject of who killed who IS WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT. You want to avoid it because it is Mohammed and his book that are engaged in murder and mayhem all around the world. I have shown you the weapons of Christianity.

.... because on judgment day, I won't be questioned about what anyone else did.

That's right. We will be judged individually by the Son of God. The very one you reject as the Son of God, and the very one whose blood you reject that would save you from wallowing in your sin.

I will be questioned about what I did with what I had.

Sorry, it's a bit more complicated than that.

1Jo 5:10 He that BELIEVETH ON THE SON OF GOD hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because he BELIEVETH NOT the record THAT GOD GAVE OF HIS SON.

Hebrews 10:29 Of HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, WHO HATH TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, and HATH COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, wherewith he was sanctified, AN UNHOLY THING, and hath DONE DESPITE UNTO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, EVEN DENYING THE LORD THAT BOUGHT THEM, AND BRING UPON THEMSELVES SWIFT DESTRUCTION.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.   

What you have been doing with what you have been given is going EXACTLY AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD, in favor of a 7th century illiterate violent false prophet.

Each is accountable for themselves.

Indeed. And you have been shown the truth of God's Holy Word. You cannot plead ignorance.

And the only ones not accountable are those not yet of puberty, those who acted only under coercion or compulsion, and those who were not mentally discerning.

And perhaps those that have not been brought the world of God:

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.

But you have been brought the Word of God. You will be without excuse when you stand in judgment before the Son of God:
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

The coercion, compulsion and lying - that is taqiyyah - defense does not apply:

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

For Muslims seeking the truth, please listen to a few videos of X-Muslim Christians that have come to know the love of the one true God and the truth of His Holy Word:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/christian_testimonies.htm
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 04:26:08 PM by Pete »
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
Please visit: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Summadat

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2008, 11:27:19 PM »
And then you show pictures of a man beating some others- now which idiot would do so when on camera?  Was it staged? Well u never seem to care about the integrity of your argument.  I never posted the headlines 'Swaggart caught with prostitute' and then blame your religion for it, have I?  Or pictures of gay bishops and clergymen? Or videos of testimonies of the holocaust survivors? Why have I not done so? Well simple, you cannot rationalize a crime.  It is simply a crime.  Neither should you try to sensationalize an issue by providing pictures that sways the heart- yet hold no importance!

Now provide some facts and quit belittling yourself.  Have you examined or studied the videos I sent you?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlD-1fMU5WA

Peace man

Pete

  • Sr. Member
  • Posts: 272
    • View Profile
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2008, 01:19:37 PM »
And then you show pictures of a man beating some others- now which idiot would do so when on camera?  Was it staged? Well u never seem to care about the integrity of your argument.

The problem is that you refuse to face the truth. The Quran orders it:

Sura 4:34 - Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her.  Her skin was bruised so badly that it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing.  Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.

"Two million Muslim women beaten ..... in France!  So what goes on in the Arab world?  Total isolation." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouztv-tRPKM&NR=1

Video of a Saudi woman:  "Saudi society is based on Masters and slaves....To be more precise masters and maids... masters are the men and slaves are the women.... The ownership of a woman is passed from one man to another.... from the father or the brother, to another man, the husband."
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1465wmv&ak=null

Pure evil.

I never posted the headlines 'Swaggart caught with prostitute' and then blame your religion for it, have I?

That's because Swaggart was engaged in an unChristian act. Just like murders done at the behest of the Papacy. But you keep plowing all of this old ground because you refuse to see the truth.

Pimping out your maid is fine in Islam:
Sura 24:33: ...But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),...

Get your head out of the sand and Yahoo any number of searches like: islam sex slavery africa

Or pictures of gay bishops and clergymen?

Apostasy in the "church" was prophesied in scripture: 2 Thessalonians 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first,....

  a falling away
New Testament Greek Definition:
646 apostasia {ap-os-tas-ee'-ah}
feminine of the same as 647; TDNT - 1:513,88; n f
AV - to forsake + 575 1, falling away 1; 2
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

The bible on the subject: 1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,...

Or videos of testimonies of the holocaust survivors? Why have I not done so? Well simple, you cannot rationalize a crime.

Islam commits them at the behest of it's so-called "holy" book:
Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

Hadith: Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: oh servant of Allah, oh Muslim, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1463wmv&ak=null

Pure evil. That you don't personally have the stomach for it makes you less of a Muslim in fundamentalists - who understand Islam - eyes.

It is simply a crime.  Neither should you try to sensationalize an issue by providing pictures that sways the heart- yet hold no importance!
But the genocide of Jews has a very significant importance to those of us that are non-Muslims. And we well understand why you would wish it minimize it's importance, so that history can repeat as Islam requires.

Your hadith calls for exactly what we see below.
Kill Jews because they are Jews.
Smite unbelievers because they are unbelievers.




                +


Hadith: Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: oh servant of Allah, oh Muslim, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!

                =



                &




Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini [Hitler's Mufti]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m2OzEvyrsw
Hitler and the Mufti
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6OK1Pi3xV8
Hitler, The Mufti Of Jerusalem And Modern Islamo Nazism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d51poygEXYU
History Of The Bosnian Muslim Nazi 13th SS Handzar Division
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNzTL4zu5Xg&feature=related
Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini [Hitler's Mufti]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m2OzEvyrsw



Now provide some facts and quit belittling yourself.  Have you examined or studied the videos I sent you?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlD-1fMU5WA

Peace man

I already told you that those videos are posted by Islamic cowards who censor comments on their videos.
I watched one and commented on it but it wasn't posted.
Muslims have to run and hide from truth. That's why bibles and Christian literature are banned in Muslim countries.

By the way. About those hats. Islam....always the opposite:

1Cr 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered [them] to you.

1Cr 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having [his] head covered, dishonoureth his head. 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

1Cr 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

Your clerics are dressed as women.
Islam, the opposite of God's book.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 09:23:53 AM by Pete »
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
Please visit: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Summadat

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2008, 02:44:21 PM »
For your own sake, I hope that you are mentally challenged. Only an idiot in this day and age would use pictures- of which one can fake a baby uprooting a building.  And you make your case on this!  Then present your proof.

Or do you choose to also ignore in your own bible where Jesus says that he did not bring peace! He brought havoc and distress, do split up families, to pit father against son... But why would I present an argument based on the bible?  The bible was written by men- some parts of it are letters that were composed to be only for the eyes of a recipient. Some of it written by historians, some by men who just liked to write, and some by men who just wanted to lie.

Did you not even look at the videos I sent you in the earlier replies?

Presenting fake images to present a case is already distortion.  I thought you were on a quest for the truth- rather, you only intended to cover the truth.

Pete

  • Sr. Member
  • Posts: 272
    • View Profile
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2008, 03:14:45 PM »
For your own sake, I hope that you are mentally challenged. Only an idiot in this day and age would use pictures- of which one can fake a baby uprooting a building.  And you make your case on this!  Then present your proof.

At least we have the testimony that puts you squarely in the Amadeenijad camp of holocaust denial.
But those pictures are part of historical record. They were taken before the middle of the last century. Try a Yahoo and see what your Islamic Mufti cooked up with Hitler.

Or do you choose to also ignore in your own bible where Jesus says that he did not bring peace! He brought havoc and distress, do split up families, to pit father against son...

Some reject His shed blood and will be lost for eternity, others are saved by it. Even within immediate families.
You can see the two camps in our conversation.

But don't try to pretend that within a family some Muslims don't believe immediate family members to be lost. Here is one Muslim mother in Canada that had her son thrown off a 4th floor balcony for turning away from Islam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y70Z_hmOGWw&feature

But why would I present an argument based on the bible?

Because it is the Word of God. The OPPOSITE of the Quran and the false prophet Mohammed.

The bible was written by men-....

The Quran wasn't even written. It was recited by an illiterate. It was collected on leaves and stones.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/textual_history_of_the_koran.htm

It is such a textual mess that rules of abrogation had to be imposed on it. http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=116.0

.. some parts of it are letters that were composed to be only for the eyes of a recipient. Some of it written by historians, some by men who just liked to write, and some by men who just wanted to lie.

I trust in God and am fully furnished through His Word:
2 Timothy 3:16  All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:  17  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Did you not even look at the videos I sent you in the earlier replies?

For the third time I looked and tried to reply but the cowards didn't post it. I can't waste my time with those that fear conversation.


Presenting fake images to present a case is already distortion.  I thought you were on a quest for the truth-....

Not at all. I found the truth: Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

... rather, you only intended to cover the truth.

Thank you for the unquestionable display of your aversion to the truth exhibited through holocaust denial.
Holocaust deniers display some of the blackest of hearts, and most reprobate of minds, in humanity.

For those seeking the truth, click on the link below and remember, or the world will be bound to repeat the holocaust through those like Summadat.
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=holocaust&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

holocaust mufti



Satan's got a firm grip on you my friend.

Who do you suppose is headed for an eternity of misery in hell Summadat?
Those who love Jews, or those that hate them and want them all dead?

You could die in a car wreck today Summadat. Then the time for choosing will be past.
It would be one thing if you were personally happy to go there.
But you are delivering your own children, and perhaps their children, into Satan's hand.




Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini [Hitler's Mufti]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m2OzEvyrsw
Hitler and the Mufti
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6OK1Pi3xV8
Hitler, The Mufti Of Jerusalem And Modern Islamo Nazism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d51poygEXYU
History Of The Bosnian Muslim Nazi 13th SS Handzar Division
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNzTL4zu5Xg&feature=related
Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini [Hitler's Mufti]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m2OzEvyrsw
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 07:19:36 AM by Pete »
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
Please visit: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Summadat

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2008, 04:13:01 AM »
doctored photos...that is your evidence!!!? You are plainly ignorant indeed!  It would be most ignorant of me had I post pictures of a christian woman in a porn video, or a pastor being arrested for murder.  But you stoop to the lowest levels of stupidity and irrelevance.

Peter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 8703
  • the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God
    • View Profile
    • False Prophet Muhammad
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2009, 11:21:01 AM »
Uthman destroyed the non-conforming versions of the Quran that his four-man editorial board did not approve.
The Shi'ite accused Uthman of destroying about twenty-five percent of the authentic material to undermine the doctrinal and political beliefs of the Shiites.
Verses include the verse on stoning, and the suckling adult:

From Anatomy of the Quran by G.J.O. Moshay:

"Aisha is quoted as saying:
"The verse of the stoning, and of sucking an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the messenger of Allah expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."

This is recorded by Abu Muslim, Ibn Maja, and Ibn Qutbah.
A Shia Islamic website quotes severla Islamic Hadith writers as saying that:
"...a sheet on which two verses, including that on stoning, were recorded were under her (Ai'sha's) bedding and that after the Prophet died, a domestic animal got into the room and gobbled up the sheet while the household was preoccupied with His funeral."

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/shia8/txt  

resistingrexmundi

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 678
    • View Profile
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2009, 10:22:56 AM »
I find it interesting that this person makes the claim "But you cannot say this about the Qur'an.  The arabic remains the arabic, and it is a language not very difficult to learn" Yet he also thinks that we somehow misunderstand the Qur'an. He also makes the comment in your reference to a sex slave being pimped out that the forgiveness discussed in that verse is for the woman. What a forgiving god he must serve if in his infinite mercy he will forgive a woman for being raped.

God bless
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

resistingrexmundi

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 678
    • View Profile
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2009, 10:30:05 AM »
I find it interesting that this person makes the statement, "But you cannot say this about the Qur'an.  The arabic remains the arabic, and it is a language not very difficult to learn." and then goes on to say that after three english translations they themselves recognize we have somehow lost the meaning. Would God make it that difficult for people to know his Word? Furthermore he tells us that the forgiveness in the verse you site on sex slaves is meant for the woman. It must be nice to serve a god who in his infinite mercy chose to forgive a woman for having the audacity to be raped.

God bless
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Peter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 8703
  • the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God
    • View Profile
    • False Prophet Muhammad
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2009, 10:42:23 AM »
I find it interesting that this person makes the claim "But you cannot say this about the Qur'an.  The arabic remains the arabic,....

Yet there are over a hundred non-Arabic words in the Quran. The word "injeel" for "Gospel" is Syriac, for example.

..... and it is a language not very difficult to learn" Yet he also thinks that we somehow misunderstand the Qur'an. He also makes the comment in your reference to a sex slave being pimped out that the forgiveness discussed in that verse is for the woman. What a forgiving god he must serve if in his infinite mercy he will forgive a woman for being raped.

God bless

Yet it is perfectly Islamic.
Many daughters are killed in "honor killings" by their fathers, for having been the victims of rape. To preserve their father's "honor" of course.
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu7fmAXNKHyQAma9XNyoA?p=islam+victim+of+rape+%22honor+killing%22&y=Search&fr=yfp-t-501&fr2=sb-top&sao=1

Just as it is perfectly scriptural, as prophesied by Daniel:
Daniel 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=466.0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V22qDQqMPL0&feature=channel_page

Peter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 8703
  • the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God
    • View Profile
    • False Prophet Muhammad
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2009, 10:45:32 AM »
If you want to edit posts simply push the "modify" button. You have lots of time to change them.
I edit mine relentlessly for clarity.
If the software does not allow loads of time to edit let me know because I think I can change that.

[edit] I just checked it out and was surprised to find that with the default setting you had "0" minutes to edit posts (I didn't realize this because as admin my time is unlimited). I changed it to 180. Hope it took.

resistingrexmundi

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 678
    • View Profile
Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2009, 11:04:08 AM »
Thank you. I did try to clarify an inadverdantly re posted.

God bless
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Peter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 8703
  • the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God
    • View Profile
    • False Prophet Muhammad
Re: TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2010, 07:41:22 AM »
http://prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_Doom_Islams_Terrorist_Dogma_in_Muhammads_Own_Words.Islam

Letter to the Reader     
   To Muslims
May the Truth Set You Free    

Islam is a caustic blend of regurgitated paganism and twisted Bible stories. Muhammad, its lone prophet, conceived his religion solely to satiate his lust for power, sex, and money. He was a terrorist. And if you think these conclusions are shocking, wait until you see the evidence.

The critics of this work will claim that Prophet of Doom is offensive, racist, hatemongering, intolerant, and unnecessarily violent. I agree - but I didn't write those parts. They came directly from Islam's scriptures. If you don't like what Muhammad and Allah said, don't blame me. I'm just the messenger.

Others will say that I cherry-picked the worst of Islam to render an unfair verdict. They will charge that I took the Islamic scriptures out of context to smear Muhammad and Allah. But none of that is true. Over the course of these pages, I quote from almost every surah in the Qur'an - many are presented in their entirety. But more than that, I put each verse in the context of Muhammad�s life, quoting vociferously from the Sunnah as recorded by Bukhari, Muslim, Ishaq, and Tabari - Islam�s earliest and more trusted sources. I even arrange all of this material chronologically, from creation to terror.

Predicting what he called the "Day of Doom" was Muhammad�s most often repeated prophecy. While it did not occur as he foretold in 1110 A.D., it nonetheless came true. Muslims and infidels alike have been doomed by Islam.

To discover why, we shall dive into the oldest surviving written evidence. These official works include: the Sira, Ta'rikh, Hadith, and Qur'an. Ishaq's Sira, or biography, called Sirat Rasul Allah, provides the lone account of Muhammad�s life and the formation of Islam written within 200 years of the prophet's death. While the character, message, and deeds portrayed within its pages are the antithesis of Yahshua's and his disciples, the Sira's chronological presentation is similar in style to the Christian Gospels. The Ta'rikh is the oldest, most trusted and comprehensive history of Islam�s formation and Muhammad�s example, called Sunnah. It was written by Tabari. His History of al-Tabari is formatted like the Bible. It begins with Islamic creation and ends with the acts of Muhammad�s companions. Tabari is a compilation of Hadith quotes and Qur'an passages. As such, it provides the best skeleton upon which to flesh out the character of Muhammad and the nature of fundamental Islam. A Hadith is an oral report from Muhammad or his companions. Muslims believe that Hadith were inspired by Allah, making them scripture. The most revered Collection was compiled in a topical arrangement by Bukhari. Allah�s Book, the Qur'an, lacks context and chronology, so to understand it, readers are dependent upon the Sira, Ta'rikh, and Hadith.

All that can be known about Muhammad�s deeds, means, motives, god, and scripture is enshrined in these books. In their pages you will see them as they saw themselves. My only point of departure from Ishaq and Tabari will be the comprehensive review of the early Meccan surahs, a period in which they had very little to say. Our paths will join again as we approach Islam�s midlife crisis: the Quraysh Bargain, Satanic Verses, Night's Journey, and Pledge of Aqaba - a declaration of war against all mankind. At this point, the Sunnah speaks more clearly than the Qur'an.

So that there will be no confusion, I have set the passages from Islam�s scripture in bold-faced type . When quoting from the Qur'an and Hadith, I have elected to use a blended translation. No language transfers perfectly - one word to another. Five of my twelve translations of the Qur'an were combined to create the most accurate conveyance of the message possible. However, the writing quality is so poor, the proofreaders of this manuscript suggested that I help Allah and Muhammad out by cleaning up their grammar, punctuation, and verbosity. So for clarity and readability, I have trimmed their unruly word patterns and meaningless repetitions, being careful not to alter the meaning or message of any passage. Insertions within parenthesis (like this) were added by the Arabic translators to fill in missing words or to clarify the text. Insertions within brackets [like this] represent my observations.

I have elected to present Islam�s original source material in juxtaposition to my evaluation of its veracity. This format is similar to that used by the first English translators of Mein Kampf as they attempted to warn America about the dangers lurking in Hitler's manifesto. They, as I, found it necessary to hold the author accountable. A great deal was at stake then, as it is today. The last time the world was ignorant of such a hateful and violent doctrine, 55 million people died. If we don't shed our ignorance of Islam, many more will perish.

My quest to understand Islam began on the morning of September 11th 2001. I wanted to know why Muslim militants were killing us. So I went off to Ground Zero for Islamic terror - Israel. The West Bank is home to more suicide bombers per capita than anywhere else on earth. I arranged to meet with the terrorists themselves. I asked members of al-Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, and Hamas why they were killing us. They said, "Islam. We are following Muhammad�s orders." That adventure is recounted in Tea With Terrorists . It covers a wide range of material and serves as a companion volume, connecting fundamental Islam to terrorism. Prophet of Doom focuses strictly on what the Islamic scriptures have to say.

So, could it be? Could a prophet and a religion be responsible for today�s terrorist attacks? I invested 10,000 hours in pursuit of that answer. I wish everyone had. But knowing that not all are able, I have distilled what I discovered into these pages.

Now for a word of caution: this journey of discovery is ordered chronologically. It is not prioritized by relevance. Explaining the root cause of Islamic terror is the biggest priority; yet it is not exposed until the last half of the book. I want you to know Muhammad, Allah, and Islam before you judge their legacy. So to keep you turning pages, I have endeavored to make Islam�s early years as entertaining as possible. While Prophet of Doom is meticulously researched, documented, and accurate, it's written as if you and I were old friends having a lively chat about the most important and lethal issue of our day.

One last thought before you head down this perilous path. I pray that when you have reached the journey's end, you will share my heart for the plight of Muslims. I want nothing more than to free them from Islam, and in so doing, free us from the terror their doctrine inspires.


Craig Winn
November 2003
ProphetOfDoom.net


The documented references in Prophet of Doom were derived from English translations of the following ancient Islamic manuscripts. I encourage you to purchase and read them. The Sirat Rasul Allah was written by Ibn Ishaq in 750 A.D. It was edited and abridged by Ibn Hisham in 830 and translated by Alfred Guillaume under the title, The Life of Muhammad in 1955 by Oxford Press. The History of al-Tabari was written by Abu Muhammad bin al-Tabari between 870 and 920 A.D. His monumental work was translated and published in 1987 through 1997 by the State University of New York Press. I quote from volumes I, II, VI, VII, VIII, and IX. Al-Bukhari's Hadith, titled: Sahih Al-Bukhari and The True Traditions was collected by Imam Bukhari in 850 A.D. I have used the collector's original nomenclature because the only printed English translation (Publisher-Maktaba Dar-us-Salam, Translator-Muhammad Khan) was abridged and erroneously numbered. Finally, I recommend that you acquire at least three of the following Qur'an translations: Ahmed Ali, Pikthal, Noble by Muhsin Khan, Yusuf Ali, or Shakir. The oldest Qur'an fragments date to around 725 A.D. - a century after they were first recited.

To continue
http://prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_Doom_Islams_Terrorist_Dogma_in_Muhammads_Own_Words.Islam

Peter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 8703
  • the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God
    • View Profile
    • False Prophet Muhammad
Re: TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2010, 04:33:30 PM »
"Gerd Puin, the world's leading specialist in Arabic calligraphy and Qur'anic paleography, studying the oldest manuscripts, speaks with disdain about the willingness of Muslims and non-Muslims alike, to accept Islamic dogma. He says: "The Qur'an claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or clear, but if you just look at it, you will see that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur'an is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur'an is not comprehensible, if it can't even be understood in Arabic, then it's not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid."